The "Non-elect"

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If by the offense of "one man" ALL were made sinners, then by the righteousness of one "ALL" can be made free. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course that is not what Scripture says. Your mistake is in assuming that all always means universally all. If so, then all people must be saved, i.e., universalism. But all must always be defined in context.

Romans 5 makes a clear comparison between the “all” who sinned and the “many” who are made righteous through faith:
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us [believers], in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us [believers].
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Again, the death of Christ is applied toward believers, not the world).
5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—— (the universal all)
5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many [the elect].
5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. (For who? Are all justified? No, only the elect, who receive the gift of faith).
5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

All men (universal) are condemned due to the imputed sin of Adam. The free gift came to all men (all those who are elect out of all types of men) resulting in justification. The second all is not inclusive, as it is limited to the justified.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Predestination teaches that "ALL MEN" can't be saved because it's God's "WILL" that some should perish, consequently Jesus's "free gift" isn't for "All MEN". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Partially correct, as explained above. Rather it is God’s will that some should be saved.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Would you witness to a sinner by telling them it might be impossible for them to be saved if they aren't among the "Elect"??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Your question presumes that I have omniscient knowledge, which I do not. We do not know who the elect are. Also, we are commanded to preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The gospel is not God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life; rather it is repent of your sins and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Of course, the unregenerate cannot believe and will not believe. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Under predestination, you don't know who is/isn't the Elect, so you could very well be lying telling a sinner they could be saved when they couldn't, is this the way the gospel is preached??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then Christ was lying when he preached to those who would not believe? Your problem is with the gospel itself; the gospel is not a plea to be saved; it is a command to repent. And the unrighteous scoff at God and his repentance. Only the elect will respond and repent of their sins, and believe in Christ.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God in his "foreknowledge" knew who would/wouldn't accept salvation, but this in "NO WAY" means that God made that decision "FOR THEM". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You again are working in caricatures. Foreknowledge does not mean what God knows ahead of time; it means that God intimately knows those who are his. God does not make the decision for them; he regenerates them so that they willingly choose him. Salvation is all in the hands of God.
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; (The all men of other passages) them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>NO WHERE does the Bible teach that man is "predestined" to "go to Hell". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wrong again. John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Adam "originated sin" for the "whole world", but Jesus removed that sin for the "Whole world", if "ALL MEN"
would "Chose" to accept it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But all men do not choose to accept the gospel. Only those whom the Father has chosen.

 

[JAMES2]

Dr. Bob Griffin:
I agree with you totally. This is a very civil informative discussion. I'm so glad that God is in control.
If I ever get to Casper I'll stop in and consider it a honor to visit your Reformed Baptist Church. I just wish there were one in my area. I guess you would say mine is Reformed Baptist in theology, if not in name. Anyway, I really enjoy this board and your comments. Also the comments of several of the other people here. For those that disagree with us, well, that is your right.

I do understand where you are coming from because I was on your side too. But now, thanks be to God, I, for a lack of a better term, consider myself a 5-point Calvinist. If I could I would be a 15-pointer. That's how strongly I believe that the Reformed theology is correct.

Anyone out their that disagrees with that, please go to the 1689 Baptist Confession and point out where it is wrong, and give your reasons. By the way, you could do the same with the Westminister Confession also. Creeds are not on a par with scripture, but man's attempt to state the fundamentals out in a reason form so new Christians don't have to keep reinventing the wheel.

Just for anyone that may be interested, I'm reading James White's "The God who Justifies." It is an excellent treatment of the doctrine of Justiciation by Faith. I recommend it to anyone. Also his book "Potter's Freedom," is worth reading. I believe you will get tremendous value for your money.
James2

 

[Dr. Bob]

Amen on the book recommendations. Those and the Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink will help a person finally organize the Scriptural teaching on election by sovereign grace alone.

Ours is not "reformed" in name, but in doctrine. And it is a work in progress, as many of the older members focus on the social aspect of "church" rather than the doctrinal aspect.

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
One of the questions I'm asked quite frequently is, "Why didn't God give "Judas" and
"Pharaoh" a chance to be saved"??

God harden Pharaoh's heart, and chose Judas to betray Jesus.

Sure sounds like "predestination", doesn't it? Not if understood in the proper context.

Suppose God, in his foreknowledge, knew that regardless of what he did, neither Judas or
Pharaoh would chose to be saved.

Look at what Jesus said about Judas:
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

God doesn't have to predestinate any to be a "devil", he has plenty of "VOLUNTEERS" from
which to pick for those parts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ex 7:3 “But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4 “When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments.

Deut 2:30 “But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

Josh 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
42Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[JAMES2]

Dr Bob Griffin:
I agree. It is so easy for people to get off the subject and the main reason they are Christians in the first place. For the glory of God, not the social gospel -- whatever that term means.

I've read Arthur Pink's The Sovereignity of God many times. What a awesome book. However, the first time I read it I threw it across the room and thought, man, that guy is a nut. My, my, my. How God works his grace in man. Now Pink is one of my very favorite authors. His exposition of Hebrews is about as fine a work in print a person will find.

And yes, it is the dreaded "D" word that is important. DOCTRINE, DOCTRINE, DOCTRINE.

James2

 

[JAMES2]

Chris Temple:
Great, great posts. I agree with you completely. I enjoy your well-reasoned, scriptue-based responses.
James2

 

[JAMES2]

Chris Temple:
I really can spell. I meant your scripture-based responses.
Have a great day
James2

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Kiffin,

You talk as if the General Baptists and Free Will Baptists no longer exist; that is not the case.

 

[Kiffin]

Michael,

I do not disagree with you that General Baptists and Free Will Baptists still exist. They however are in a minority if we are to define General Baptists in the historically sense and not the E.Y. Mullins,John R. Rice Free will style.

I have stated before I admire Helwys and the early General Baptists and count them part of my heritage despite disagreeing with them.

My point to Pioneer is not to bash the General Baptist contribution but that historically practically all Baptists in America have their roots in the Particular Baptist movement. That cannot be disputed. If Calvinism as he said was hatched in hell then the majority of Baptist work was also hatched in hell. The ultimate implication is that all us Calvinists are lost apostates and indicates a lack of knowledge of Calvinism and of Baptist history.

[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

[rlvaughn]

Kiffin and Michael, I started to jump in here on this General/Particular discussion, but decided rather to start a topic in the "Denominational Discussions" on General Baptists. Would be glad to get your comments over there!

Re: concerning "all" in Romans 5, et. al. - There is a consistent thread of usage by Paul of the word "all" (or everyone) in Romans meaning all kinds of men, whether Jew or Gentile (e.g. 1:16; 2:9; 3:9; etc.). This does not immediately disprove the General/Arminian idea, but does fit thematically into the letter, and lend credence to the fact that Paul was excluding no clases of men, rather than thinking of every single individual from Adam that makes up the totality of the human race.

 

[Kiffin]

Sounds interesting rlvaughn, Though it will probably be Monday before I can respond but I trust you and Michael will keep the thread alive with ya'll's insights

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Kiffin,

After talking with Jeff Weaver and some other Primitive Baptists, I would no longer agree that Calvinism was hatched in hell--somewhere deep in the earth such as the Grand Canyon maybe, but not in hell.

 

[S. Baptist]

This discussion remind me of the "bumper stickers" that were popular a few years back, "NO
MEANS NO!!!

But evidently "ALL MEN" doesn't mean "ALL MEN", just some.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world
through him might be saved.

Jesus's death was to restore all of mankind to live with God, all the sin/suffering/evil
in the world today isn't by the "Will of God" in predestining some to "be evil", but by men
who reject God.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted
with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned
already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Why is man condemned, "because he hath not believed",


According to the doctrine of "predestination", man has no part in his salvation, "FAITH" of
the believers doesn't count, but that's not what the bible teaches. FAITH is the "Justifier" of
man and the means by which God judges between "lost and saved".

Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the
justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Why is man condemned in Judgment, "because he hath not believed",

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus
Christ:

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for
righteousness.

Abraham's righteousness came by his "FAITH" in God, and it's the same today.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

According to scripture, it's our faith in Jesus that saves us, and unbelief that condemns us.

God's sovereign rights will never conflict with his words, Jesus's commandment to "go into
all the world" was so that "all the world" might be saved.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every
creature.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Mt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Our eternal destination is determined by "US", (our words) Scripture doesn't get any clearer.

De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

De 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I
command you this day:

De 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,

Jos 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve;

As the Jews and Abraham had a "Choice", so does "EVERYONE" else. God is no respector
of persons.

Hell wasn't prepared for "mankind", only Satan and his angels, but it's a choice man makes.

Mt 25:41 Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his
angels:

A person's faith, or lack of, will determine their future on Judgment day, none can accuse God
of withholding salvation from them.

 

[Pioneer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
I am a strongly "reformed baptist" but do not believe or teach a double predestination that God condemns man to hell by fiat, leaving man no choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In mathematics, once a statement is accepted as a fact then there are certain statements that can be derived from the original statement that will also be accepted as fact.

Let's take mankind and call that "the universal set" and then according to calvinism divide mankind into 2 subsets ("the elect" and "the non-elect").

Then we say that "the elect" have been chosen by God to be saved. The obvious conclusion would be to say that "the non-elect" have been chosen by God to be lost.

Then we say that "the elect" have been chosen by God to be saved before the foundation of the world. The obvious conclusion would be to say that "the non-elect" have been chosen by God to be lost before the foundation of the world.

Then we say that "the elect" have been chosen by God to be saved before the foundation of the world and it had absolutely nothing to do with them personally but it only had to do with God's "good pleasure". The obvious conclusion would be to say that "the non-elect" have been chosen by God to be lost before the foundation of the world and it had absolutely nothing to do with them personally but it only had to do with God's "good pleasure".

The final conclusion is that, if Calvinism is correct, then our eternal destiny has already been determined before we were ever born and their ain't nothing nobody can do about it anyhow, so why bother trying.

I firmly believe that Calvinism is a lot like communism; it looks good on the outside but on the inside it's rotten to the core. Those that finally wake up to the truth are so disgusted with religion that they won't trust anyone any more. Calvinism ultimately produces good athiests.

[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]

 

[Dr. Bob]

You are missing a point in the reasoning process, Pioneer. You are making straw men and attacking them.

Take the world as a set. ALL the world; everyone without exception, distinction, gender, age, race, creed, color -- well you get the picture.

100% of them by nature opts for hell of their own depraved will. 100%. God doesn't have to "send" them there; they are willingly going on their own.

Then the subset - God, for His good pleasure and by His grace alone, selects 1.7% (or any figure you think; that is my estimate) of mankind to be the recipients of divine unmerited grace.

THEY get the wonderful gifts of faith and repentance so that their regenerated will WILL repent and trust Christ; the others do not. That sub-set goes to heaven (ALL that the Father gives the Son WILL go to heaven).

Is there really a second subset? No, the other 98.3% were already in the group of those going to hell of their own free will. God does not have to predestine them to anything. Because they have not believed "they are condemned already".

And always remember, God is the Potter and the Potter has the freedom to do anything He pleases. THAT is the hardest thing for our prideful self to grasp. Salvation is 100% of God and 0% Bob -- or it would no longer be called "grace".

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Bob,

That is a totally depraved hypothesis.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Pioneer,

You have Calvinism pegged exactly right; you have stated the logical end to which consistent Calvinsim must lead, but most Calvinists are neither logical nor consistent, as is proved by reading the posts on this board.

Calvinism turned me away from God--at least the Calvinist god--and organized religion; the God of my Lord Jesus Christ turned me around.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It always amazed me that Calvinists are the ones decried as following a logical system rather than Scripture. This thread has shown the exact opposite. The Arminians on here are the ones determined to fit everything into a grid that they can understand rather than accepting that the infinite perfections of God create a Creator/creature distinction that will never be understood by us mere mortals. I am a Calvinist not because of logic or a desire on my part to understand everything. I have long ago given up on that. I am a Calvinist because of what God said in Scripture about his purposes and plans.

Michael said that Calvinism drove him away from God. I was ready to walk away from God until I began to accept his sovereignty.

Dr. Bob is certainly right. There are so many straw men set up here that I hope no one is smoking. Besides losing your salvation you would burn the place down. At some point, we as men must accept what God said and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in tears of gratitude that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so. I cannot, if I look ever so earnestly, discover any kind of reason in myself why I should be a partaker of Divine grace. If I am not at this moment without Christ, it is only because Christ Jesus would have His will with me, and that will was that I should be with Him where He is, and should share His glory. I can put the crown nowhere but upon the head of Him whose mighty grace has saved me from going down into the pit. Looking back on my past life, I can see that the dawning of it all was of God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life-no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me-warnings were cast to the wind- thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Doddridge and Toplady-

"Grace taught my soul to pray,

And made my eyes o'erflow."

and coming to this moment, I can add-

"Tis grace has kept me to this day,

And will not let me go."

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul-when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man-that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment- I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God." - C.H. Spurgeon, A Defense of Calvinism <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Okay, so now I could post quotes from Arminians--Baptist, Methodist, etc.--to contradict the Calvinist quotes posted here.