Chris Temple
New Member
Michael -
It's not he who quotes most who so winneth, but which quotes make the most biblical sense,
It's not he who quotes most who so winneth, but which quotes make the most biblical sense,
-
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The "Non-elect"
- Thread starter Michael Wrenn
- Start date
Ahhh - the doctrine of double predestination - a doctrine no one will admit to - yet if Free Will does not exist then that doctrine must be true
If God desires that all be saved. Why is He actively locking in people's destination to Hell. If God is Love why cant He save us all?
Why are we asked to Go ye into all the world?
or Come let us reason together?
Its because the very dual nature of God both Justice and Mercy, Holiness, and Love require opposite things, but most man-made doctrines have to cancel one side to satisfy the other.
Calvinism cancels God's total love, and reduces His mercy while playing up His holiness and justice.
Some people believe in the sad doctrine that everyone gets to go to heaven. That cancels out his Justice, and Holiness, and focusses specifically on the aspects of Love and Mercy.
Neither of these extremes are true, but they all contain a fragment of truth.
The truth is that Jesus sacrificed Himself so that mankind could come to God. Yes not that man would want to. However God gave us two things that allow us to be reached. And no not prevenient grace. He gave us free will and reason.
Free will and reason obviously arent enough for us to come to God, since man's heart is naturally evil. But it does allows us when Scripture is preached, read, revealed to us, to take that evidence and consider it. Creation itself is evidence, but since it too is fallen, it takes a special act by God for it to have a greater impact upon us.
I have to admit that predestination exists - any fool who denies that denies the power of God. But God in His miraculous design so desires to have companionship, fellowship, partnership, that He temporarily allows His will that all be saved to be submissive to our choices. Such as the spirit of the prophet and tongues can be quenched, So God allows ONLY temporarily that His will is submissive to ours. There ARE times when God is fed up with struggling with man, and He in His awesome power and wisdom, will forcibly predestinate someone, He does this so that if all Christians everywhere did their duty that after that predestination occurs the possibilty for 100% world redemption occurs, but alas it fades quickly, and then God intervenes again in some way.
Now people will say God's will submissive to man's BLASPHEMY - I remind them of the following verses
Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
2 timothy 1:6
Acts 7:51
1 Corinthians 14:32
Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
God can and does superimpose His will, and override the choices of man, but it is NOT the normative, else when we were all new born into the body of Christ, we could by no force on earth commit sin, being so controlled by God.
We seek to become more like Christ, so that we can understand His actions, and thus follow them.
And to those who say we cannot sin as Christians I ask them to explain
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Well again perhaps I could have been more coherent and organized, but I tried to type what Jesus would say with His mystical 2x4 of revelation upsiding our heads.
Let me try to create a data flow
Situation occurs - man assesses - God looks at assessments and decides whether or not He should intervene and force a certain path before man chooses bad one - Normally God wont, Sometimes He will - man acts upon resulting free will or predestined choice. - God can then convict if choice was wrong. Which if it was predestined it shouldnt be.
If God desires that all be saved. Why is He actively locking in people's destination to Hell. If God is Love why cant He save us all?
Why are we asked to Go ye into all the world?
or Come let us reason together?
Its because the very dual nature of God both Justice and Mercy, Holiness, and Love require opposite things, but most man-made doctrines have to cancel one side to satisfy the other.
Calvinism cancels God's total love, and reduces His mercy while playing up His holiness and justice.
Some people believe in the sad doctrine that everyone gets to go to heaven. That cancels out his Justice, and Holiness, and focusses specifically on the aspects of Love and Mercy.
Neither of these extremes are true, but they all contain a fragment of truth.
The truth is that Jesus sacrificed Himself so that mankind could come to God. Yes not that man would want to. However God gave us two things that allow us to be reached. And no not prevenient grace. He gave us free will and reason.
Free will and reason obviously arent enough for us to come to God, since man's heart is naturally evil. But it does allows us when Scripture is preached, read, revealed to us, to take that evidence and consider it. Creation itself is evidence, but since it too is fallen, it takes a special act by God for it to have a greater impact upon us.
I have to admit that predestination exists - any fool who denies that denies the power of God. But God in His miraculous design so desires to have companionship, fellowship, partnership, that He temporarily allows His will that all be saved to be submissive to our choices. Such as the spirit of the prophet and tongues can be quenched, So God allows ONLY temporarily that His will is submissive to ours. There ARE times when God is fed up with struggling with man, and He in His awesome power and wisdom, will forcibly predestinate someone, He does this so that if all Christians everywhere did their duty that after that predestination occurs the possibilty for 100% world redemption occurs, but alas it fades quickly, and then God intervenes again in some way.
Now people will say God's will submissive to man's BLASPHEMY - I remind them of the following verses
Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
2 timothy 1:6
Acts 7:51
1 Corinthians 14:32
Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
God can and does superimpose His will, and override the choices of man, but it is NOT the normative, else when we were all new born into the body of Christ, we could by no force on earth commit sin, being so controlled by God.
We seek to become more like Christ, so that we can understand His actions, and thus follow them.
And to those who say we cannot sin as Christians I ask them to explain
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Well again perhaps I could have been more coherent and organized, but I tried to type what Jesus would say with His mystical 2x4 of revelation upsiding our heads.
Let me try to create a data flow
Situation occurs - man assesses - God looks at assessments and decides whether or not He should intervene and force a certain path before man chooses bad one - Normally God wont, Sometimes He will - man acts upon resulting free will or predestined choice. - God can then convict if choice was wrong. Which if it was predestined it shouldnt be.
S. Baptist
New Member
Pioneer said:
The obvious conclusion would be to say that "the non-elect" have been chosen by God to be
lost before the foundation of the world and it had absolutely nothing to do with them
personally but it only had to do with God's "good pleasure".
Pioneer makes a good point here, the "non elect" go to hell, "NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR
SIN", but because of "God's good pleasure".
Dr. Bob said:
And always remember, God is the Potter and the Potter has the freedom to do
anything He pleases. THAT is the hardest thing for our prideful self to grasp.
Salvation is 100% of God and 0% Bob -- or it would no longer be called "grace".
TRUE, but God's freedom will never contradict his word, and his word teaches that the sin
Adam created for "ALL MEN", Jesus can remove for "ALL MEN", if (a condition)they "Believe" in Jesus.
What is "Grace"???
The "law of God" states that "The wages of sin is death", and "All have sinned".
"LEGALLY", God is "justified" to cast all of us into Hell, without exceptions.
Jesus, in dying for us, satisfied the requirements of God's Law, (without shedding of blood,
(death) no remission)
Legally speaking, Jesus didn't have to die, he had no sin, BUT, we are
recipients of his "love", "Mercy", "Grace", in him chosen to die for us, and why??
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,
And who is this "world" Jesus loved/died for?
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us.
"ALL Sinners" were the world, and "all sinners" "MIGHT", (not would, will) be saved, but
have the opportunity to be saved.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world
through him might be saved.
If there's a "MIGHT" in salvation, then something more is required, and that is "FAITH" and
"CONFESSION" on the part of the believer.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
If man had no part in Salvation then Jesus's Sacrifice would have restored mankind back to
the "Garden of Eden", Adam's sin would have been "totally" cancelled out for all mankind, not
just believers.
The obvious conclusion would be to say that "the non-elect" have been chosen by God to be
lost before the foundation of the world and it had absolutely nothing to do with them
personally but it only had to do with God's "good pleasure".
Pioneer makes a good point here, the "non elect" go to hell, "NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR
SIN", but because of "God's good pleasure".
Dr. Bob said:
And always remember, God is the Potter and the Potter has the freedom to do
anything He pleases. THAT is the hardest thing for our prideful self to grasp.
Salvation is 100% of God and 0% Bob -- or it would no longer be called "grace".
TRUE, but God's freedom will never contradict his word, and his word teaches that the sin
Adam created for "ALL MEN", Jesus can remove for "ALL MEN", if (a condition)they "Believe" in Jesus.
What is "Grace"???
The "law of God" states that "The wages of sin is death", and "All have sinned".
"LEGALLY", God is "justified" to cast all of us into Hell, without exceptions.
Jesus, in dying for us, satisfied the requirements of God's Law, (without shedding of blood,
(death) no remission)
Legally speaking, Jesus didn't have to die, he had no sin, BUT, we are
recipients of his "love", "Mercy", "Grace", in him chosen to die for us, and why??
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,
And who is this "world" Jesus loved/died for?
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us.
"ALL Sinners" were the world, and "all sinners" "MIGHT", (not would, will) be saved, but
have the opportunity to be saved.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world
through him might be saved.
If there's a "MIGHT" in salvation, then something more is required, and that is "FAITH" and
"CONFESSION" on the part of the believer.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
If man had no part in Salvation then Jesus's Sacrifice would have restored mankind back to
the "Garden of Eden", Adam's sin would have been "totally" cancelled out for all mankind, not
just believers.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Chris,
Yes--but then that's a debatable point, too.
Dr. Bob,
In reading back over my posts, I realize I should have added "pun intended" at the end of my comment about your "totally depraved hypothesis".
Yes--but then that's a debatable point, too.
Dr. Bob,
In reading back over my posts, I realize I should have added "pun intended" at the end of my comment about your "totally depraved hypothesis".
Michael you said,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Calvinists are neither logical nor consistent <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Could you explain? I see as Pastor Larry does that it is the non Calvinists on this thread that try to neatly explain how God works while Calvinist admit there is mystery and do not try to explain how Whosoever will and Unconditional election are both true but simply state it is a mystery. Calvinists and our spiritual cousins in the Reformed Faith, Lutherans do not try to show how this is true logically.
I like how the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod explains it, " there is no "rational" or "logical" way to put these two truths together. Lutherans believe and confess them not because they are "rational" and "logical," but because this is what we find taught in Scripture."
I think you will find most Calvinists will agree with that statement also.
[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Calvinists are neither logical nor consistent <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Could you explain? I see as Pastor Larry does that it is the non Calvinists on this thread that try to neatly explain how God works while Calvinist admit there is mystery and do not try to explain how Whosoever will and Unconditional election are both true but simply state it is a mystery. Calvinists and our spiritual cousins in the Reformed Faith, Lutherans do not try to show how this is true logically.
I like how the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod explains it, " there is no "rational" or "logical" way to put these two truths together. Lutherans believe and confess them not because they are "rational" and "logical," but because this is what we find taught in Scripture."
I think you will find most Calvinists will agree with that statement also.
[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Dr. Bob, In reading back over my posts, I realize I should have added "pun intended" at the end of my comment about your "totally depraved hypothesis".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I caught it right away and recognized your humor in it! But thanks for being sensitive to the casual reader who may not have followed what you (or I) meant!
God bless!
Dr. Bob, In reading back over my posts, I realize I should have added "pun intended" at the end of my comment about your "totally depraved hypothesis".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I caught it right away and recognized your humor in it! But thanks for being sensitive to the casual reader who may not have followed what you (or I) meant!
God bless!
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Kiffin,
I should have said that the only consistent Calvinists I've seen are the Primitive Baptists--but then they don't really like to be called Calvinists.
Bob,
Thanks.
I should have said that the only consistent Calvinists I've seen are the Primitive Baptists--but then they don't really like to be called Calvinists.
Bob,
Thanks.