The NT does not teach Christ to return soon.

[MB]

You still don't understand how lame it is to have Jesus saying 'some of you here will not die within the next eight days'. If that's too deep for you to grasp,....well, disregard...

Well of course you are a Biblical master everyone should believe you over scripture. LOL

 

[Bible Scanned]

Every single plain text - like this one or the transfiguration one or the many "this generation" verses - can be explained away when one is determined enough to do so.

I'm curious to know how you view

1. The resurrection of the dead spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and if you view it as something that has already occurred, and if you tie the above two scriptures Matthew 24:29-31? and

2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4? Do you view it as something that has already occurred, or something that lies in the future?

PS: I believe Christ has not returned yet. I believe the resurrection spoken of in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 (all references to the resurrection in that chapter) refers to the resurrection of the body that died, in the day it is raised a spiritual body, and I believe this will only take place when Christ returns, and I believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 have not yet been fulfilled.

I also do believe that in the Olivet Discourse the Lord was referring equally to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D 70, and to His return (but that His return is still coming); and I do believe that Daniel 9:26-27 was fulfilled in the 1st century, culminating in A.D 70. (I'm a futurist with respect to the appearance of the man of sin, the return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and chapters 6-11 and 13-22 of the Revelation) (I believe chapter 12 spans the entire Age).

 

[asterisktom]

I'm curious to know how you view

1. The resurrection of the dead spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and if you view it as something that has already occurred, and if you tie the above two scriptures Matthew 24:29-31? and

2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4? Do you view it as something that has already occurred, or something that lies in the future?

PS: I believe Christ has not returned yet. I believe the resurrection spoken of in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 (all references to the resurrection in that chapter) refers to the resurrection of the body that died, in the day it is raised a spiritual body, and I believe this will only take place when Christ returns, and I believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 have not yet been fulfilled.

I also do believe that in the Olivet Discourse the Lord was referring equally to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D 70, and to His return (but that His return is still coming); and I do believe that Daniel 9:26-27 was fulfilled in the 1st century, culminating in A.D 70. (I'm a futurist with respect to the appearance of the man of sin, the return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and chapters 6-11 and 13-22 of the Revelation) (I believe chapter 12 spans the entire Age).

Thank you for this detailed reply. Yes, all those passages you cite IMV are referring to the same event.I believe that first the saints who died in Christ rose first (resurrection) and a split second later the living saints were raptured, both groups joining to meet the Lord in the air. The saints who died were raised in their spiritual bodies. The raptured saints were first transformed. We, Christians of all ages, will also be transformed just as they were.

 

[37818]

Hebrews 9:12, ". . . by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, . . ." To per Hebrews 9:24, ". . . For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: . . ." until per Hehrews 9:28, ". . . appear the second time . . . ."
That word "once" used in verse 9 is the very same word used in Hebrews 10:10, " . . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Having the same significance until His second appearing.

 

[asterisktom]

Hebrews 9:12, ". . . by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, . . ." To per Hebrews 9:24, ". . . For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: . . ." until per Hehrews 9:28, ". . . appear the second time . . . ."
That word "once" used in verse 9 is the very same word used in Hebrews 10:10, " . . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Having the same significance until His second appearing.

I am not sure why you think any of this counters my view. Please show me.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You know how stupid you make Christ look when you force the passage to mean "there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death within the next six days"?

Only if you pervert the meaning of the passage to try and make our Lord look foolish.

All of the people addressed by Christ 'tasted of death' without seeing the KIngdom coming with power. Only three saw the Lord Jesus transfigured. What's your problem?

Was the Transfiguration a 'coming in power' of our Lord? Yes it was. 'For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, For He received from God the Father honour and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory. "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain' (2 Peter 1:16-18).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The appearance of Christ certainly was sudden and unexpected to the lost.

It would have been if they had seen him.

 

[37818]

I am not sure why you think any of this counters my view. Please show me.

What I understand from Hebrews 9:12 is simply this: Jesus entered Heaven to be our mediator until He is to comes again. Why must that understand be false? So for me I believe in one second appearing. So I can't be pre trib or orthodox Preterist. But post trib pre wrath pre mill.

 

[robycop3]

Thank you for this detailed reply. Yes, all those passages you cite IMV are referring to the same event.I believe that first the saints who died in Christ rose first (resurrection) and a split second later the living saints were raptured, both groups joining to meet the Lord in the air. The saints who died were raised in their spiritual bodies. The raptured saints were first transformed. We, Christians of all ages, will also be transformed just as they were.

No; those events haven't happened yet. There's simply no mention in history of such an event occurring. And back then, they didn't have Bibles, so, with all the Christians gone, how could anyone come to Christ without a Bible?

 

[asterisktom]

No; those events haven't happened yet. There's simply no mention in history of such an event occurring. And back then, they didn't have Bibles, so, with all the Christians gone, how could anyone come to Christ without a Bible?

There were not complete Bibles. But complete Bibles were not needed. The Word of God is not limited. Were you saved by reading the whole Bible? I wasn't. Just a few verses were all that was needed.

And there were mentions in history, but they were not what you expect, I suppose. The Christians all being gone right after the rapture, the ones who wrote of the event did not have the whole picture.

 

[asterisktom]

What I understand from Hebrews 9:12 is simply this: Jesus entered Heaven to be our mediator until He is to comes again. Why must that understand be false? So for me I believe in one second appearing. So I can't be pre trib or orthodox Preterist. But post trib pre wrath pre mill.

Agreed. Christ entered once to be our Mediator. Even though it was in the past He is always our Mediator. I also believe in one second appearing. We are still in it, seeing that He reigns right now.

 

[MB]

There were not complete Bibles. But complete Bibles were not needed. The Word of God is not limited. Were you saved by reading the whole Bible? I wasn't. Just a few verses were all that was needed.

And there were mentions in history, but they were not what you expect, I suppose. The Christians all being gone right after the rapture, the ones who wrote of the event did not have the whole picture.

So we've been in the kingdom for 2000 years when the Bible only speaks of a thousand years. Where is Christ then. don't tell me He is hiding out somewhere on earth. Or, is it that the rest of scripture where it predicts His coming and describes the Kingdom is wrong. Wher is the New Jerusalem?
MB.

 

[kyredneck]

Only if you pervert the meaning of the passage to try and make our Lord look foolish.

It's you that makes our Lord look ridiculous by forcing the passage to mean 'some of you will still be alive six days from now'.

All of the people addressed by Christ 'tasted of death' without seeing the KIngdom coming with power.

Wrong. Every eye our Lord intended to see it, did. Matthew 26:64; Revelation 1:7.

Only three saw the Lord Jesus transfigured. What's your problem?

You're conflating the transfiguration with the coming of the Son of Man/coming of the kingdom. You ignore or 'breeze over' the parallel passages that don't exactly fit your dogma:

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9
27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Lu 9

The coming of the Son of man and the coming of the kingdom of God with power are synonymous.

33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24
29 even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13
31 Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

The coming of the Son of man and the coming of the kingdom of God are synonymous, AND, "shall in no wise taste of death" defines "This generation shall not pass away", i.e., "this generation" is none other than those living at that time that were contemporary with Christ and the apostles.

Luke 17 also verifies the synonymy of "the Son of man in His day" with "the kingdom of God cometh not with observation".

 

[kyredneck]

That day Jesus said what He said to the day of the transfiguration were eight days.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: Mt 17

 

[kyredneck]

Well of course you are a Biblical master everyone should believe you over scripture. LOL

I'm certainly 'master' enough to make the prediction that some of the Baptistboard members will still be alive six days from now. Kinda irrelevant, don't you think? That's exactly what some of you do, make Christ's words irrelevant with this ridiculous rendering.

 

[robycop3]

There were not complete Bibles. But complete Bibles were not needed. The Word of God is not limited. Were you saved by reading the whole Bible? I wasn't. Just a few verses were all that was needed.

And there were mentions in history, but they were not what you expect, I suppose. The Christians all being gone right after the rapture, the ones who wrote of the event did not have the whole picture.

Someone had to be present to distinguish Scripture from the hundreds of legends then in print. And there were thousands of Christians, some of them holding important positions. had they suddenly vanished, it would've been recorded unmistakably in history, as many of them would've vanished in the presence of other people. Sorry, Sir; preterism remains false.

 

[asterisktom]

Someone had to be present to distinguish Scripture from the hundreds of legends then in print. And there were thousands of Christians, some of them holding important positions. had they suddenly vanished, it would've been recorded unmistakably in history, as many of them would've vanished in the presence of other people. Sorry, Sir; preterism remains false.

You have a low view of Scripture if you think the Word requires a person present for It to work. People get saved with just reading Scripture verses. And the rapture came in on the latter part of the Neronic persecution that raged throughout the Empire. Many Christians were being hauled to prison and killed.

And, if Christ did indeed come "as a thief in the night" it would have made the disappearances less noticeable. Two reasons for this. First, if someone was noticed to be missing the next day then it may have been assumed he or she was taken to prison.

Also, because persecution was so intense there were very few Christians. Christ said "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matt. 24:22.

 

[asterisktom]

So we've been in the kingdom for 2000 years when the Bible only speaks of a thousand years. Where is Christ then. don't tell me He is hiding out somewhere on earth. Or, is it that the rest of scripture where it predicts His coming and describes the Kingdom is wrong. Wher is the New Jerusalem?
MB.

His Kingdom has no end, Luke 1:33.. Where do you get this 1000 year limit to His reign? His reign is visible to the discerning. He reigns "in the midst of enemies". Psalm 110:2

 

[37818]

Where do you get this 1000 year limit to His reign?

That is only the first part of His eternal reign before the Judgement. In the New Heaven and New Earth which follows it continues it's forever.

 

[37818]

1 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: Mt 17

Matthew and Mark mention there being 6 days between the 2 events totalling 8 day as mentioned in Luke.