The Number Of God’s Elect

[Tea]

It is often asserted that the doctrine of predestination and election was the invention of Augustine during the 4th century. I did some digging to see if there were any extra-biblical sources on predestination going back to the Apostolic Period and was intrigued by an epistle called “First Clement” written some time around 97 AD.

Clement of Rome (also known as Pope Clement I by our Catholic friends) had written to the church in Corinth rebuking them for removing their elders and urging that they be restored. He also makes mention of the elect in various places throughout, but the most eye-opening is what is found in the second chapter.

Full of holy designs, you did, with true earnestness of mind and a godly confidence, stretch forth your hands to God Almighty, beseeching Him to be merciful unto you, if you had been guilty of any involuntary transgression. Day and night you were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God's elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.

Notice the utilization of language that is very similar to Acts 13:48 (as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.) Just as it was with the Apostle Luke, Clement didn’t stop and explain the subject of election and predestination; he only mentioned it in passing and moved on.

I went even further and looked at the original language. The Greek word for “number” is “ἀριθμὸν,” a singular noun that indicates a specific total sum amount. In other words, Clement understood that the number of God’s elect was fixed and unchanging, having been determined prior to creation.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

 

[Van]

Hi Tea,

You make two assumptions in your opening post, in my opinion.

One, you seemed to assume, from the quotation for "Clement of Rome" he believe all the elect had already been chosen, supporting the Calvinist claim of people being predestined to salvation before creation. However, I could pray that the whole number of God's elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience before the end of the age.

Next, you seemed to assume Ephesians 1:4 supports that God chose us (referring to individuals who had been born anew) before the foundation of the world. However, the alternate view, is when God chose His Redeemer, Christ, He also by that choice, chose corporately those who His Redeemer might be redeemed.

However, let us drop back to the issue of God planning to save a specific number of individuals for His own possession and then end the age of grace, with Christ setting foot on the Mount. I believe that is true, so the more we help to harvest from the field white for harvest, the sooner Christ will return. Thus we should be endeavoring to "hasten the day."

 

[Zaatar71]

It is often asserted that the doctrine of predestination and election was the invention of Augustine during the 4th century. I did some digging to see if there were any extra-biblical sources on predestination going back to the Apostolic Period and was intrigued by an epistle called “First Clement” written some time around 97 AD.

This is a charge that those who hate the doctrine bring forth. They sift through and look for tid bits and comments to piece together to try in vain to set aside the teaching of scripture. They fail.

Clement of Rome (also known as Pope Clement I by our Catholic friends) had written to the church in Corinth rebuking them for removing their elders and urging that they be restored. He also makes mention of the elect in various places throughout, but the most eye-opening is what is found in the second chapter.

Full of holy designs, you did, with true earnestness of mind and a godly confidence, stretch forth your hands to God Almighty, beseeching Him to be merciful unto you, if you had been guilty of any involuntary transgression. Day and night you were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God's elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.

Reading such writings can support some ideas, but the scripture itself declares the clear truth of these teachings. You get academic types, who assemble such writings in a poor attempt to overthrow the teaching of God's grace. No matter how smart a person is, if they have not welcomed parts of these truths, it is not because of intellect, or lack thereof, but because God has not yet opened it up to them.
Even a PhD who has not come to these truths is lacking and needs to grow and be instructed by the Spirit of God granting those portions where they lack to be welcomed.

Notice the utilization of language that is very similar to Acts 13:48 (as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.) Just as it was with the Apostle Luke, Clement didn’t stop and explain the subject of election and predestination; he only mentioned it in passing and moved on.

These early writings, were people trying to express things they saw written at that time. We take for granted what we have available because of the printing press, computers, Tv google, commentaries, study helps,etc. They did not have those tools.

I went even further and looked at the original language. The Greek word for “number” is “ἀριθμὸν,” a singular noun that indicates a specific total sum amount. In other words, Clement understood that the number of God’s elect was fixed and unchanging, having been determined prior to creation.

Exactly. We only have portions of what people wrote, and thought as they try and figure it out. Think of an unchurched person, who is given a bible, and tries to figure out all 66 books with no man to help them. They will get some, on their own.Some things they will get correct, many things they will get wrong. Put the same person in a bible college that is solid, and not liberal apostate, and he will grow exponentially.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

When I first read this verse, I had no doubt that God was God! Did I understand it all. no, but the main truth came through loud and clear.

 

[Tea]

Hi, Van.

However, the alternate view, is when God chose His Redeemer, Christ, He also by that choice, chose corporately those who His Redeemer might be redeemed.

I believe the text indicates that the focus of the choosing is "us," rather than "in Him." Paul subsequently elaborates on the numerous blessings we receive by being "in Him." Therefore, I do not believe that this perspective can be substantiated when considering the flow of thought.

However, let us drop back to the issue of God planning to save a specific number of individuals for His own possession and then end the age of grace, with Christ setting foot on the Mount. I believe that is true, so the more we help to harvest from the field white for harvest, the sooner Christ will return.

Does God know the exact time when that number will be reached?

 

[Van]

Hi, Van.

I believe the text indicates that the focus of the choosing is "us," rather than "in Him." Paul subsequently elaborates on the numerous blessings we receive by being "in Him." Therefore, I do not believe that this perspective can be substantiated when considering the flow of thought.

Does God know the exact time when that number will be reached?

Scripture says the Father knows something about or concerning "that day and hour" but just what is known is not stated. For example, the Father could know that whenever His predetermined number of elect is reached, then Christ will return. See Matthew 24:36.

Yes, I believe a number of Calvinists would like to rip "in Him" out of the text. The "flow of thought" actually supports the corporate election before creation.

1:3 God has, past tense, blessed us who are spiritually in Christ who is located in the heavenly.

1:4 Seeing that God chose us corporately when He chose Christ individually before creation that we be holy and blameless before Him.

1:5 And He predestined us, who are in Christ, to be bodily redeemed,

1:6 To the praise of His grace which He bestowed upon us who are spiritually in Christ.

But Paul was not done listing our blessing lavished upon us who have been placed spiritually in Christ.

1:7 In Him we have deliverance, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, through His blood, the sacrifice of His life.

Paul goes on to list that "in Him" we have had the mystery of His will revealed, His end of age plans, we have obtained our inheritance, the first installment, having been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

 

[Silverhair]

It is often asserted that the doctrine of predestination and election was the invention of Augustine during the 4th century. I did some digging to see if there were any extra-biblical sources on predestination going back to the Apostolic Period and was intrigued by an epistle called “First Clement” written some time around 97 AD.

Clement of Rome (also known as Pope Clement I by our Catholic friends) had written to the church in Corinth rebuking them for removing their elders and urging that they be restored. He also makes mention of the elect in various places throughout, but the most eye-opening is what is found in the second chapter.

Full of holy designs, you did, with true earnestness of mind and a godly confidence, stretch forth your hands to God Almighty, beseeching Him to be merciful unto you, if you had been guilty of any involuntary transgression. Day and night you were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God's elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.

Notice the utilization of language that is very similar to Acts 13:48 (as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.) Just as it was with the Apostle Luke, Clement didn’t stop and explain the subject of election and predestination; he only mentioned it in passing and moved on.

I went even further and looked at the original language. The Greek word for “number” is “ἀριθμὸν,” a singular noun that indicates a specific total sum amount. In other words, Clement understood that the number of God’s elect was fixed and unchanging, having been determined prior to creation.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

You do make some assumptions in your post which seem to be influenced by your particular theological view.

The number of those that will be saved is known to God not because He has caused them to believe or picked out a select group that were saved prior to creation but because He is Omniscient and has foreknowledge of all those that will freely trust in Him.

As for your use of Act 13:48 a simple reading of that verse in the context in which it is found will clear up your misunderstanding of the text.

"There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation.
Paul had shown that God's plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away." RWP

"Christians are ordained to eternal life in Act_13:48; conferring of status rather than foreordination is the point." TDNTs

 

[Zaatar71]

You do make some assumptions in your post which seem to be influenced by your particular theological view.

Everyone does.

The number of those that will be saved is known to God not because He has caused them to believe

Of course he does

or picked out a select group that were saved prior to creation but because He is Omniscient and has foreknowledge of all those that will freely trust in Him.

So, in your world God is only a spectator, who waits and looks for the results of what man decides???

As for your use of Act 13:48 a simple reading of that verse in the context in which it is found will clear up your misunderstanding of the text.

My friend, you and others are theones who purposefully avoid the clear teaching of all such texts, because to understand them correctly would be to admit you error.

"There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation.

That comes from all 66 books

Paul had shown that God's plan extended to and included Gentiles.

God revealed that from Moses forward. Paul just believed what God said, as you should

.Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart

Or does God replace the heart of stone, with a heart of flesh?

to which some respond, as here, while others push him away."

No, all resist God ,His word, and His people,unless and until God saves them.

RWP

"Christians are ordained to eternal life in Act_13:48; conferring of status rather than foreordination is the point."

Completely wrong, and backwards as usual.

TDNTs

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Tea,

You make two assumptions in your opening post, in my opinion.

One, you seemed to assume, from the quotation for "Clement of Rome" he believe all the elect had already been chosen, supporting the Calvinist claim of people being predestined to salvation before creation. However, I could pray that the whole number of God's elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience before the end of the age.

Next, you seemed to assume Ephesians 1:4 supports that God chose us (referring to individuals who had been born anew) before the foundation of the world. However, the alternate view, is when God chose His Redeemer, Christ, He also by that choice, chose corporately those who His Redeemer might be redeemed.

However, let us drop back to the issue of God planning to save a specific number of individuals for His own possession and then end the age of grace, with Christ setting foot on the Mount. I believe that is true, so the more we help to harvest from the field white for harvest, the sooner Christ will return. Thus we should be endeavoring to "hasten the day."

Elect based upon the will of God, not His foreknowledge

 

[JesusFan]

Everyone does.

Of course he does

So, in your world God is only a spectator, who waits and looks for the results of what man decides???

My friend, you and others are theones who purposefully avoid the clear teaching of all such texts, because to understand them correctly would be to admit you error.

That comes from all 66 books

God revealed that from Moses forward. Paul just believed what God said, as you should

Or does God replace the heart of stone, with a heart of flesh?

No, all resist God ,His word, and His people,unless and until God saves them.

Completely wrong, and backwards as usual.

The Holy Spirit himself regenerates the elect of God unto salvation, as we need to have Him grant to us a new heart and mind in order to receive Jesus as Lord thru gift of faith

 

[Silverhair]

Everyone does.

does what Z?

Of course he does

Who is he Z?

So, in your world God is only a spectator, who waits and looks for the results of what man decides???

And in your world He determines everything including all the sin and evil.

My friend, you and others are theones who purposefully avoid the clear teaching of all such texts, because to understand them correctly would be to admit you error.

We actually study the word of God in context. You ans your ilk just cherry pick verses that you think support your flawed view.

That comes from all 66 books

The truth does come from all 66 books not from your calvinist teachers. That isd your error Z, you trust those men more that the bible.

God revealed that from Moses forward. Paul just believed what God said, as you should

I do trust what God said and so should you.

Or does God replace the heart of stone, with a heart of flesh?

When people trust in Him He gives them a new heart because they believe not so they will believe as you seem to think.

No, all resist God ,His word, and His people,unless and until God saves them.

You have it backwards Z.

Completely wrong, and backwards as usual.

So you disagree with both RWP and the TDNT. You are really lost in your false view Z.

 

[Zaatar71]

does what Z?

Who is he Z?

And in your world He determines everything including all the sin and evil.

We actually study the word of God in context. You ans your ilk just cherry pick verses that you think support your flawed view.

The truth does come from all 66 books not from your calvinist teachers. That isd your error Z, you trust those men more that the bible.

I do trust what God said and so should you.

When people trust in Him He gives them a new heart because they believe not so they will believe as you seem to think.

You have it backwards Z.

So you disagree with both RWP and the TDNT. You are really lost in your false view Z.

I do not know who are rwp, tdnt. I am not sure what you mean?
the first to points I was answering your post. read your post, then you will see, I answered you questions.
As far as the rest of your post. you want to believe what van and JohnC say about me, you are welcome to do that.I and others have offered you help, but evidently you do not welcome it, and choose error, and ignorance, which of course is your call. Thanks for your response!

 

[Silverhair]

I do not know who are rwp, tdnt. I am not sure what you mean?
the first to points I was answering your post. read your post, then you will see, I answered you questions.
As far as the rest of your post. you want to believe what van and JohnC say about me, you are welcome to do that.I and others have offered you help, but evidently you do not welcome it, and choose error, and ignorance, which of course is your call. Thanks for your response!

RWP = Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)

TDNT = Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

We all have a bias which is formed by what we have heard or read.

I consider the written word of God to be the truth you seem to have more trust in what some men have told to the word of God means. So you bias leans toward those men and mine to God's word.

I do not base my view on what Van or JonC have said but on what you have written Z.

The truth you are promoting has been shown to come from pagan philosophy. This has been pointed out to you and others many times but you still hold to that false view.

The truth has been presented to you but you still reject it. I and others have pointed you to the truth but we cannot make you believe it. Only God can open your blinded eyes.

 

[Tea]

Scripture says the Father knows something about or concerning "that day and hour" but just what is known is not stated. For example, the Father could know that whenever His predetermined number of elect is reached, then Christ will return.

Matthew 24:30 (ESV)
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:36 (ESV)
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

The Scriptures are quite clear on this. The Father does indeed know the precise day and hour of Christ's return. Thus, the specific number of the elect must be completed at the designated time. I find no room for any other interpretation.

The "flow of thought" actually supports the corporate election before creation.

Paul goes on to list that "in Him" we have had the mystery of His will revealed, His end of age plans, we have obtained our inheritance, the first installment, having been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

That particular flow of thought poses challenges for the corporate election view. The blessings received by those individuals were achieved in the past and are now acknowledged in the present. Blessings cannot be received by an anonymous group of people.

 

[Silverhair]

The Scriptures are quite clear on this. The Father does indeed know the precise day and hour of Christ's return. Thus, the specific number of the elect must be completed at the designated time. I find no room for any other interpretation

God knows the whole number of those that will freely trust in Him prior to the return of Christ. To say otherwise would limit the Omniscience of God.

That particular flow of thought poses challenges for the corporate election view. The blessings received by those individuals were achieved in the past and are now acknowledged in the present. Blessings cannot be received by an anonymous group of people.

As you said "blessings cannot be received by an anonymous group" just as blessings cannot be received by those that do not exist. We only receive the blessing when we are in Christ through faith which does not happen prior to creation but only after we have freely trusted in Him.

I am sure that you will agree that only those that are saved will receive those blessings. If so then you cannot have anyone saved / in Christ prior to creation. As we are told in Eph 2:8 By [God's] grace we are [in Christ] saved through faith.

 

[Tea]

You do make some assumptions in your post which seem to be influenced by your particular theological view.

Regardless of what my theological view is, the OP provides the evidence to support the claim that at least one early Christian writer believed that the exact number of God’s elect was settled based on their usage of a singular noun.

 

[Silverhair]

Regardless of what my theological view is, I have provided evidence to support the claim that at least one early Christian writer believed that the exact number of God’s elect was settled based on their usage of a singular noun.

@Tea it is not based on the use of a singular noun. It is based on the fact of God's omniscience. Do you think Christ would return and leave some damned that were foreknow to freely trust in God?

I read what Clement said and I think you are reading into his words information that is not there. All Clement is saying is that the whole number foreknown by God will be saved.

Tea you make the error of thinking one is elect prior to being in Christ but that is not logical or biblical. If we are in Christ then our sins have been forgiven thus if we were elect prior to creation then we would have no sins to be forgiven for and thus the requirement to trust in Christ would null and void.

 

[Tea]

God knows the whole number of those that will freely trust in Him prior to the return of Christ. To say otherwise would limit the Omniscience of God.

Where we part ways is that I believe nobody can freely trust in Him without first being set free by the Son.

As you said "blessings cannot be received by an anonymous group" just as blessings cannot be received by those that do not exist.

If that group has already received blessings before creation, then it is God who decides who belongs to that group.

I am sure that you will agree that only those that are saved will receive those blessings. If so then you cannot have anyone saved / in Christ prior to creation. As we are told in Eph 2:8 By [God's] grace we are [in Christ] saved through faith.

As mentioned, it is a reality that was achieved in the past and is now recognized in the present for those who are chosen.

 

[Silverhair]

Where we part ways is that I believe nobody can freely trust in Him without first being set free by the Son.

But that is not what we see in scripture. When is one set free @Tea? And what are they set free from?

But what is the truth that sets one free?
Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation...

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The truth about who God is.

If that group has already received blessings before creation, then it is God who decides who belongs to that group.

Then since He desires all to come to repentance then why do not all come to repentance as He makes that choice according to your view. Man has nothing to do with it, even his faith has nothing to do with it as it was all decided before creation

As mentioned, it is a reality that was achieved in the past and is now recognized in the present for those who are chosen.

But, again your view calls into question the character of God. You say only He can choose those to be saved and did so prior to creation and yet He judges mankind for not trusting in Him even though they are unable to do so as they were not prepicked.

 

[Tea]

When is one set free @Tea? And what are they set free from?

John 8:34-36 (ESV)
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

But what is the truth that sets one free?
Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation...

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The verses you mentioned come from being liberated by the Son. They do not serve as the means for an individual to achieve their own freedom.

Then since He desires all to come to repentance then why do not all come to repentance as He makes that choice according to your view.

This represents yet another significant point of disagreement between us. The context of the term "all" in this discussion refers to the elect. If not, the implication is that God does not always achieve His desires, as not everyone repents.

But, again your view calls into question the character of God. You say only He can choose those to be saved and did so prior to creation and yet He judges mankind for not trusting in Him even though they are unable to do so as they were not prepicked.

God had the option to withhold mercy from His people and let all of humanity be lost, yet He chose not to. What an incredible God!