The Office of Pope

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
What of viewing the Pope as head of the Church? Is that a problem since it is clear that Christ is Head of the Church? How is the Pope viewed differently?

Is not Jesus Christ "the Word made flesh?" He is THE WORD. And yet is not Scripture the "Word of God?" Does Scripture have authority? Of course it does.

Jesus Christ is the head of the Church, indeed, but the invisible head. The Pope is the visible head of the Church, the universal pastor and shepard of the Church on earth, in the stead of Jesus Christ until Christ comes again in glory.

I personally don't see the conflict. The Pope is the servant of God, a physical substitute but not a spiritual one.

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Also, is the office of Pope above the authority of Scripture?

From the Catechism:

"Yet this Magisterium (teaching body of the Church) is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant."

As Catholics we do not believe that the Word of God is limited to the written Scriptures, but also in oral Tradition. The teaching body of the Church, with the Pope as its head, is subserviant COMPLETELY to the Word of God, in both Scripture and Tradition. So, while the Pope (along with the rest of the Magesterium) have the authority to interpret the Word of God, they are doing so in its service, not because they are lord over it.

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Many accuse the RCC as having the Pope as the ultimate authority with Scripture as secondary.

If there was no Word of God, the Pope would have nothing to interpret or speak about, would he? Therefore, the Word of God is first, and the Pope and the Magesterium are its servant.

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Thanks for your patience Grant.

Neal

I have all the patience in the world for those who are polite, as yourself.

God bless you,

Grant

 

[neal4christ]

Another quick question off topic. I looking at the diocese's closest to me home page and when it list the churches, it gives info as to when Sunday Mass is and a Saturday vigil. But then there is a section called Holy Days and it has times in there for some churches and not for others. What are Holy Days?

Neal

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Another quick question off topic. I looking at the diocese's closest to me home page and when it list the churches, it gives info as to when Sunday Mass is and a Saturday vigil. But then there is a section called Holy Days and it has times in there for some churches and not for others. What are Holy Days?

Neal

Holy Days are special days devoted to particular saints or aspects of their lives (or of the Lord's life) in which a special Mass is celebrated and the faithful are to attend.

These include such obvious ones as Easter and Christmas, and also include January 1 (Mary, Mother of God), November 1 (All Saints Day), and others. I believe there are 8 observed as manditory in the United States, but more in other countries.

God bless,

Grant

 

[neal4christ]

Is there Mass at other times of the week besides Sunday? Does it vary from church to church?

Neal

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Is there Mass at other times of the week besides Sunday? Does it vary from church to church?

Neal

It will vary from church to church. It depends on how many priests they might have, how large of a congregation it is, if it's an established parish or a mission parish, etc. For instance, St. Joseph in Starkville, MS has three Masses on Sundays (one of those is for students, and only happens during fall and spring semesters, as this is a college town). Then there is morning Mass at 7am on Tues and Thurs, morning Mass at 7:15am on Fri, and 5:30pm evening Mass on Wednesday. Our priest then holds a vigil Mass on Saturday at a neighboring town that is a mission parish.

As you can tell, that's a lot of variety. Some larger churches will have a Mass EVERY day, but the times will be different as well. Best place to check is www.masstimes.org.

God bless,

Grant

 

[neal4christ]

Thanks for the link, Grant. That was exactly what I was looking for!

Neal

 

[Armando]

Neal, see if this make sense:

First of all, the Bible tells us that Our Lord founded one (single) church (Mat 16,18 Eph 4,4 Eph 1,22 Mat 18,18 1 Tim 3,15 etc ). I don't know if protestants agree to this or not, but to me, it is very difficult to think that Our Lord wanted many churches all disagreeing from each other and all beleiving in the same Bible.

I also beleive that He also meant for this Church and not the Bible to take us into all truth until the end of the world (Mat 28,20 1 Cor 14,33).

He chose 12 apostles and gave them ALL authority and Infallibility (specially to Peter). This is what I understand when He said:

Lk 10,16 " Who ever listens to you listens to me"
Mat 10,40 " WHo ever receives you receives Me"
John 20,22 "As the Father sent me I sent you"

and Mat 16,19 the keys given to Peter and the power to bind and unbind

To me seems impossible for Peter (or any other apostles) to err in the name of Jesus. Otherwise, how can it explain when our Lord says "whoever listens to you listens to me" this by itself tells me that the apostles couldn't err thus being infallible.

Now, if I look at the OT I found that:

Ez 34,11 God is the shepard "For thus saith the Lord God: Behold I myself will seek my sheep, and will visit them."

but he delegates the responsibility to David

Ez 34, 23 And I WILL SET UP ONE SHEPHERD OVER THEM, and he shall feed them, even my servant David: he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd (Psalm 77,21)

Something similar happens in the NT, Our Lord is the SHepard (Jn 10,11) but after His asunction he let Peter in charge (Jn 21,15) of the lambs and sheeps, thus becoming the visible shepard.

So it is Peter the one that confirms his breathrens (Lk 22,31)

It is Peter, James and John considered the pillars by Paul (Gal 2,1-9)

It is Peter that is making sure that the letters of Paul (2 Pe 3,15) or the OT (2 Pe 1,20) are not being misinterpreted

It is Peter the first one to enter the empty tomb after the resurection (John 20, 4) - John waited outside

Hope it helps,
Thanks

[ January 27, 2003, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Armando ]

 

[neal4christ]

Thanks, Armando, that was helpful insight. More to consider and think on!

Neal

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Neal

Somewhere at the beginning of this thread you asked if Catholics were scared giving someone (ie the Pope) that much power. When my non-catholic friends bring this up I always point out that that average protestant minister has much more power over matters of faith than the Pope and it is their power which truly scares me. Sometimes it is difficult for each side to understand the others prospective but I will give it a try.

When speaking from the seat of Peter (ex cathedra) a Pope cannot teach something contrary to scripture, Sacared tradition, or prior ex cathedra teachings. He really is very limited. The Church/Pope has the authority to clarify the faith not to change it, that is why the Catholic faith has remained so consistent from the begining.

A Protestant minister however well meaning teaches whatever he believes the Holy Spirit has led him to in the Bible, this may reverse his previuos teachings and may be completely contrary to what his protestant brothers have taught in many previous generations. The Pope does not excercise this kind of absolute power.

To make matters worse if a member of a protestant congregation believes the Holy Spirit has led him to a completely different teahing he will very likely look for a new church or start his own and the cycle keeps spirling with more and more disunity and denominations.

In the end it seems everyone acts as there own Pope only excercising more power over matters of faith than any Catholic Pope. To me extremely scary.

The Pope and the Church act as guardian of the deposit of faith handed down in unbroken succession from the Apostles. Not as some sort of ultimate dictator which can change the faith at a whim. Jesus promised that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide us to all truth, if you believe in denominationalism it would seem that the Holy Spirit has guided us to many different truths

You can see some of that consistency of faith by reading the early church fathers as is constantly mentioned here or by even comparing
the current beliefs of early break away groups such as the Oriental Orthodox (broke away 454 ad) and the Eastern Orthodox (broke away 1054 ad) to that of Catholocism of today. Eventhough these other groups broke away so long ago, from a Protestant prospective the differences between them and Catholocism would probably seem extremely minor and many of these differnces may not be actual differences as much as just two different ways to express one truth. (Although there forms of public worship can seem quite diverse. And to be fair from there prospective the Catholic Church broke away from them.)

God Bless

[ January 28, 2003, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi neal,

You asked, "Is there Mass at other times of the week besides Sunday?"

I attend Mass every day of the week in a packed university chapel. My university has 3 Masses every day, and about 60 to 80% of the university students attend daily mass everyday out of their own free choice. Each liturgy is an hour long full with music ministry.

For more information on my university, visit:

http://developer.franciscan.edu/Admissions/Life.aspx

To view the chapel where we have 24 hour perpetual Eucharistic adoration, visit:

http://www.franciscanconferences.com/PDFs/ABSconf.pdf

I LOVE daily mass!

God bless,

Carson

 

[daydreamer]

Carson,
So do I! It's the highlight of my day, most of the time.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Emily,

You wrote, "So do I! It's the highlight of my day, most of the time.

Which one do you normally attend? I've been going to the 6:25 more this semester.

We are very blessed with some very holy Franciscan friars who can preach.

God bless,

Carson