The Olivet Discourse in Mt 24 & Lk 21

[Yeshua1]

Historical premil!

At least you and i would see future events from a more lietral viewpoint then our reformed bethren and pretierist who see it thru "spiritualized glasses!"

 

[Yeshua1]

The Bible speaks to the Church, both Old and New Testaments. In the Revelation as recorded by the Apostle Paul we read:

Romans 15:4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The disciples of Jesus Christ constituted the visible Church at that time, therefore, in the Olivet Discourse Jesus Christ is speaking to the Church at that time and for all time.

Matthew 24:1-3.
1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus Christ addresses the questions posed by the disciples [the Church] and Matthew records it for our [the Church's] benefit:

1. When shall these things be? The things are those mentioned by Jesus Christ in verse 2, the destruction of the Temple!

2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Part of the Olivet Discourse addresses the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. The remainder addresses the visible return of Jesus Christ in power and glory at the end of time.

There is no pre-trib rapture, no "7 year" great tribulation, no new temple, no renewal of bloody temple sacrifices, no Jewish earthly millennial kingdom; just the Great White Throne Judgment and the New Heavens and New Earth eternally.

Lutzer's interpretation of the Discourse must be faulty because it is based on the faulty doctrine of dispensationalism.

One could just as well say that the interpretation of the Discourse based upon either Amil or pretierist views are inherintly flawed due to being spirtualised !

Just saying have to learn and the verses and see which fits the contex right, regardless IF dispy or not!

 

[Yeshua1]

JF,
Kyred posted several times in post 7....it says "this generation".....not a final generation. Of course to maintain the pre mill system a person has to lift those verses out and make them speak of a terminal generation as you are doing....

hint.... read it as if Jesus meant it for them that he was speaking to....
let THIS mean this! I read those books and did this very thing for years without even thinking of any other way.

Question-

Could you give an accurate amill view to someone?

Could you give an accurate post mill view to anyone?

Or would it be a caricature. I am not asking you to believe the other views.I am asking can you sketch out the views accurately?

let me give it the try!

post Mils would hold that the Church is the Kingdom of God upon the earth , and that the church is extending forth the Kingdom into the earth, and that happens by transformation culture/society by spreading the Gospel, having God placed back into society etc...

Gradually the earth and systems are coming back under the Lordship of christ, and once enough has been done, then the Lord Jesus returned!

Amil hold that Christ is reigning in spirtual sense in his millinium, started at his ascension to the father, satan was bound, and that at his returning there will be immediate judgement, with new heavens/earth set up... as they would see the church now being "spiritual isreal"

BOTh affirm that there will be a resurrection of saints to glorification, sinners to final judgement!

Is that close?

 

[OldRegular]

One could just as well say that the interpretation of the Discourse based upon either Amil or pretierist views are inherintly flawed due to being spirtualised !

You apparently need to brush up on amillennialism and preterism! I don't believe either one "spiritualizes" [whatever that means] Matthew 24.

Just saying have to learn and the verses and see which fits the contex right, regardless IF dispy or not!

You got me!

 

[Iconoclast]

let me give it the try!



Amil hold that Christ is reigning in spirtual sense in his millinium, started at his ascension to the father, satan was bound, and that at his returning there will be immediate judgement, with new heavens/earth set up... as they would see the church now being "spiritual isreal"

BOTh affirm that there will be a resurrection of saints to glorification, sinners to final judgement!

Is that close?

post Mils would hold that the Church is the Kingdom of God upon the earth , ...

1] the church is not the kingdom

2] God's kingdom is worldwide

3] Local churches exist within the Kingdom

4] Jesus reigns in heaven Now as Lord and Christ

5]Jesus rules and reigns in the midst of his enemies

and that the church is extending forth the Kingdom into the earth,

Yes...as the gospel is preached the kingdom or reign of God is made known to the nations,as John the Baptist announced , the Kingdom of God is at hand. A proper response to the gospel, by God given new birth , results in local church growth.....

and that happens by transformation culture/society by spreading the Gospel, having God placed back into society etc...

This overall concept is correct, but here is where the view gets distorted!

It is not a christianization of society...by the teaching of morality....the transformation takes place by more and more people being converted by the Spirit of God. Post mill writers and teachers see the gospel as being victorious in that the majority of the world becomes coverted....not just externally, but internally...

Gradually the earth and systems are coming back under the Lordship of christ, and once enough has been done, then the Lord Jesus returned!

The whole earth is under His Lordship as believers, or rebels....nevertheless he is Lord.
Some post mill see the final thousand year period as a time with a majority of christians being alive on earth...others see it as the whole period since the cross.

Amil hold that Christ is reigning in spirtual sense in his millinium, started at his ascension to the father, satan was bound, and that at his returning there will be immediate judgement,

Amil hold that Christ is reigning in spirtual sense in his millinium

No...
There is a literal reign from heaven now.Jesus is literally reigning.The reign is visibly expressed in the church. While the kingdom of God is within us by new birth....it is also expressed literally and visibly in the world.

with new heavens/earth set up...

some amill,and some postmill see new heaven and new earth as speaking of this age under kingdom rule and administration. Jesus as KING of kings.

as they would see the church now being "spiritual isreal"

the see that physical israel had spiritual israel within it, they see that now christian israel has merged with spiritual israel to form one new man, which was always central in God's focus.......Physical israel was not meant to be the focus.......the ONE NEW MAN....was always the focus.

Now...JF....Do you know what verses would be offered to support these ideas?
When you know some of the main verses and see where they are in scripture,and you can see that a biblical case can be made for the view---then you are in better position to make a determination which view you see as biblical:thumbs::wavey:

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you hold that jesus is fully reigning now here upon the earth, even though this worldis under the control of satan, as regards to current world order/system?

that Christians are being butchered world wide, and that there is massive famines, natural disastors etc?

My bible states that when jesus ushers in his messaniac reign, that ALL of that would have ceased...

So how can he be reigning as prophecied would be at his second Coming now?

 

[Greektim]

Do you hold that jesus is fully reigning now here upon the earth, even though this worldis under the control of satan, as regards to current world order/system?

that Christians are being butchered world wide, and that there is massive famines, natural disastors etc?

My bible states that when jesus ushers in his messaniac reign, that ALL of that would have ceased...

So how can he be reigning as prophecied would be at his second Coming now?

already... not yet

 

[Yeshua1]

already... not yet

the Kingdom is here partially, and will be ushered in fully a tSecond Coming?

is that what you are saying?

'partially realised eschatology?"

 

[OldRegular]

My bible states that when jesus ushers in his messaniac reign, that ALL of that would have ceased...

Just where in your Bible does it say Jesus Christ ushers in His Messianic Reign?

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you hold that jesus is fully reigning now here upon the earth, even though this worldis under the control of satan, as regards to current world order/system?

that Christians are being butchered world wide, and that there is massive famines, natural disastors etc?

My bible states that when jesus ushers in his messaniac reign, that ALL of that would have ceased...

So how can he be reigning as prophecied would be at his second Coming now?

JF,
I do want you to offer the scriptures the post and amill view would offer...at least 3-5 main ones, otherwise you will continue to just ignore what they offer from scripture and not really understand the basis of the views.

Do you hold that jesus is fully reigning now here upon the earth, even though this worldis under the control of satan, as regards to current world order/system?

that Christians are being butchered world wide, and that there is massive famines, natural disastors etc?

Jesus reigns from the throne in heaven,over all the earth.

as regards to current world order/system?

that Christians are being butchered world wide, and that there is massive famines, natural disastors etc?

Yes...look here.....
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

All the sin and evil take place as Jesus reigns in the MIDST of His enemies...in verse 9-11 Jesus is well aware of saints being put to death, and more who are allowed to be put to death.

My bible states

Everyones bible states the same verses. Those who hold another view must account for each verse.

My bible states that when jesus ushers in his messaniac reign, that ALL of that would have ceased...

Which verses do you think say this??

The reign is not what you expect it to be.



5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.