The Opposite Thread

[Skandelon]

I debated in High School and College and my instructors drilled us on knowing our opponents position as well, if not better, than our own. As practice we often were forced to debate the other side of an issue to prove our grasp of the subject and ability articulate it objectively and convincingly.

So, just for the FUN of it and to show that we can objectively understand opposing doctrines I want to introduce the OPPOSITE thread. A place for you to come and FAIRLY argue for your opposing view.

Non-Calvinists argue for Calvinism fairly, objectively and convincingly.

"Calvinists" (any of the Reformed tradition) argue for non-Calvinism fairly, objectively and convincingly.

ONE RULE: Please avoid being sarcastic and using caricatures, really try to represent the other side fairly and convincingly.

 

[The Archangel]

ONE RULE: Please avoid being sarcastic and using caricatures, really try to represent the other side fairly and convincingly.

Yeah...good luck with that.

(Note: A general statement, not directed at Skandelon)

 

[Skandelon]

Yeah...good luck with that.

You may be right, but I'll give it go with this quote, to get things rolling:

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I debated in High School and College and my instructors drilled us on knowing our opponents position as well, if not better, than our own. As practice we often were forced to debate the other side of an issue to prove our grasp of the subject and ability articulate it objectively and convincingly.

So, just for the FUN of it and to show that we can objectively understand opposing doctrines I want to introduce the OPPOSITE thread. A place for you to come and FAIRLY argue for your opposing view.

Non-Calvinists argue for Calvinism fairly, objectively and convincingly.

"Calvinists" (any of the Reformed tradition) argue for non-Calvinism fairly, objectively and convincingly.

Skan:

Many years ago in my country there was this guy who didn't believe Christ was both God and man and in a debate the rule was that you argue in favor of the opponent, which is to say his side was to prove Christ was God and the other's side (a Roman Catholic) was to prove that Christ is not God.
He argued successfully and won the debate.
Is this what you are saying ?
I needed this clarification, because, who knows, maybe mr. snow is right that I am stupid.:tongue3:

ONE RULE: Please avoid being sarcastic and using caricatures, really try to represent the other side fairly and convincingly.

good luck, man, and I mean it.

 

[Winman]

The scriptures say that all men are totally depraved. They cannot understand or seek God, they never do good, every word coming out of their mouth is deceitful, full of cursing and bitterness, and we are all swift to shed blood, destruction, and misery. And no man is afraid of God.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Skandelon]

Skan:

Many years ago in my country there was this guy who didn't believe Christ was both God and man and in a debate the rule was that you argue in favor of the opponent, which is to say his side was to prove Christ was God and the other's side (a Roman Catholic) was to prove that Christ is not God.
He argued successfully and won the debate.
Is this what you are saying ?
I needed this clarification, because, who knows, maybe mr. snow is right that I am stupid.:tongue3:

Well, we are in the "opposite" thread so that means you are smart.

I wouldn't go as far as asking someone to argue against the divinity of Christ, however a good apologist would know the views well enough to make a strong showing. So, you have the right idea. Show us you have the ability to articulate the views of those who oppose you...here is your opportunity.

 

[Skandelon]

The scriptures say that all men are totally depraved. They cannot understand or seek God, they never do good, every word coming out of their mouth is deceitful, full of cursing and bitterness, and we are all swift to shed blood, destruction, and misery. And no man is afraid of God.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

That's right Winman, there is NNE who seeks God which is why God must effectually intervene to bring a totally depraved soul salvation.

As 1 Cor 2:14 plainly says, "he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." That means a lost man cannot understand the plain gospel truth because it must be spiritually discerned.

And Romans 8 clearly teaches that man cannot subject himself to the Law of God or even please God. Believing in Christ would please him, thus this passage obviously means that the lost can't believe unless they are first regenerated.

Free will is never taught in scripture; its a man made doctrine which glorifies the man to the neglect of God's glory.

 

[quantumfaith]

Skan:

Many years ago in my country there was this guy who didn't believe Christ was both God and man and in a debate the rule was that you argue in favor of the opponent, which is to say his side was to prove Christ was God and the other's side (a Roman Catholic) was to prove that Christ is not God.
He argued successfully and won the debate.
Is this what you are saying ?
I needed this clarification, because, who knows, maybe mr. snow is right that I am stupid.:tongue3:




good luck, man, and I mean it.

Dr. Peter Kreeft often does this with his philosophy/apologetic classes. (Yes he is Catholic, but prior was of the Reformed tradition). His experience with this "additive inverse" exercise he says is quite interesting. He says unequivocally that the "theist" students who are arguing for agnosoticism/atheism by far do a better job than the agnostic/athiest students do arguing for the theist position. Interesting results.

 

[Winman]

Man is born a sinner, speaking lies the day they are born.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[Skandelon]

like a lead ballon