The Origin & destiny of believers as taught in 1 Cor. 15.

[Amy.G]

'Spitiritual, yes. Body, also yes.
The body that Jesus had when He rose from the grave was clearly different in some respects from the one that went into the tomb, but it was still a physical, flesh and blood body. 'And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see for a spirit [Greek, pneuma] does not have flesh and blood as you see I have." When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy and marvelled, He said to them, "Have you any food here?" So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence.'

That body was the one in which our Lord ascended into heaven. It is the same body in which He will return from heaven (Acts 1:11). And since Christ is the firstfruits (cf. Lev 23:9-11) from the dead (1Cor 15:23), we shall rise in the same sort of body that He has. Yes it is spiritual, inasmuch as it will not be subject to decay, but we shall not be spirits, any more that He was.

Steve

Actually, it says "flesh and bones", not blood. I don't believe Jesus had blood in his resurrected body. He poured it out on the mercy seat.

 

[asterisktom]

Actually, it says "flesh and bones", not blood. I don't believe Jesus had blood in his resurrected body. He poured it out on the mercy seat.

So you believe Jesus just went through the motions of eating that fish? Blood is required for eating. Also for such things as that walk to Emmaus. Did Jesus do these things really, or did He just appear to do them?

If you say He only appeared to do them you align yourself with the heretical docetists. If you say He really did them then that requires blood.

I hope that, upon reflection, you opt for #2.

 

[Amy.G]

So you believe Jesus just went through the motions of eating that fish? Blood is required for eating. Also for such things as that walk to Emmaus. Did Jesus do these things really, or did He just appear to do them?

If you say He only appeared to do them you align yourself with the heretical docetists. If you say He really did them then that requires blood.

I hope that, upon reflection, you opt for #2.

How silly. Christ also walked right through walls. What does it require to do that? His resurrected body was not exactly like His earthly body was it? But it was and IS a body.

 

[Aaron]

I appreciate the appeal to Scripture. May I ask where exactly the "spiritual body" verse is?

1 Cor. 15:44.

 

[asterisktom]

1 Cor. 15:44.

Thank you. Most certainly that is exactly what Scripture says:

"1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."

However, consider that the "body" here - especially when looking at this larger context - can also be considered in a corporate sense (no pun intended).
That was my whole point in posting my other recent OP on 1 Cor. 15, showing that the emphasis was on the corporate body of Christ and we as members of that body.

 

[agedman]

Now here is the Preterist application:

We shall be like Christ.
And what is Christ like - according to this passage? He is like He was when He came to Earth. He is spiritual.
Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
We - according to this passage - will also be like Him.
Pure spirit.

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7

 

[convicted1]

This post below is excerpted and adapted from my most recent Xanga article, Preterist Response to a Futurist. I post it here, with a few modifications, to focus on one aspect of this resurrection question: Just what will we be like?

In this 15th chapter of First Corinthians we have a series of contrasts between the new life and the old, the things we will become contrasted to those things we are being saved from. Those good qualities of the new creature (v. 42-44) are: incorruption, glory, power, spiritual. Then we read about the originators of the two classes, Adam and Christ. Adam "became a living being". Christ, "a life-giving Spirit." KJV unhelpfully provides "became", which is not at all the point.

Then we come to a very important, oft-overlooked, detail. Overlooked in application, the origins of these two persons. (Skipping v. 46 for this post):

"The first man is of the earth (ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) ."

This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become "ek ges" and "ex ouranou". This preposition (ek, ex - the forms only differ because of euphonics) shows origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis. The "Second Adam" came from heaven. Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are - and (v. 48) the essence of their "followers".

Verse 49 says that "we shall [or "let us"] bear the image of the heavenly man" (the Second Adam, from heaven).

Now here is the Preterist application:

We shall be like Christ.
And what is Christ like - according to this passage? He is like He was when He came to Earth. He is spiritual.
Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
We - according to this passage - will also be like Him.
Pure spirit.

We cannot have part Adam's essence ("dust") and part Christ's, seeing that we could not then "enter into the Kingdom of God". "Dust" has to do with "flesh and blood", not spirit.

Brother Tom, I am in complete agreement with you in regards to Jesus not having the same body in heaven that He had while here on earth. No flesh will glory in God's presense(sp?). And I am also in complete agreement with you that when we enter through the portal of heaven, we will have a body likened unto His body, spiritual.

Here's where we differ. I do see Jesus coming again in the cloud. When He calls, all the bodies of the CHRISTians that are lying in their grave, under water, had been burned to ashes, blown to pieces, etc., will rise up(Christians rising first), and those who are alive and remain(CHRISTians), will be changed in a moment and twinkling of an eye(going from physical bodies to spiritual bodies), and they will meet Jesus in the air. Those bodies will be given a new spiritual body, iow. Then, those who died in their sins, and those who are sinners alive at His second coming, will be given a spiritual body as well. Those souls in hell will come forth and be reunited with their new spiritual body, and all sinners will then be cast into the lake of fire(the second death). Jesus stated, "Blessed are they who hath part in the first resurrection, on such, the second death(cast into the lake of fire), hath no power.

So, I agree with you on the bodies we get in heaven, but I disagree that Jesus' second coming has already taken place. I pray that God blesses you in China, and that you may have a very Merry CHRISTmas!! I love you, Brother Tom!!

i am I AM'S!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7

Jesus did come in the flesh. That was the only way He could have died for sinful man. Jesus in the Spirit is "pristine". Jesus in the flesh was "pristine", until He took the sin of the world(John 1:29) upon Himself, and became our scapegoat(Leviticus 16). He knew no sin, but became sin for us(when He bore our sins on the cross). He was sinless in the flesh, but took our sins upon His flesh, and tasted death for every man(Hebrews 2:9).

 

[convicted1]

I find it so much easier to say that we shall be changed, and that the body raised will be a spiritual body, NOT an earthly one. The Scriptures say this straight out.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


I erased the "thumbs" in your post so that I could give you the necessary four "thumbsup" for this wonderful post......

 

[agedman]

Brother Tom, I am in complete agreement with you in regards to Jesus not having the same body in heaven that He had while here on earth. No flesh will glory in God's presense(sp?). And I am also in complete agreement with you that when we enter through the portal of heaven, we will have a body likened unto His body, spiritual.

Spiritual?????

That is not correct.

When Jesus arose, he didn't change bodies. He had the SAME physical body as he had on the cross. He showed the scars and wounds. He ate, he talked. He passed through walls just as he was able to pass through the crowds unnoticed. He was all God before the cross and after the cross.

His body in heaven is the same as that which was on earth except for the lack of blood. The Apostles saw him being taken into the heavens and the angels specified that that SAME Jesus would return. He won't have a new body - that same body that he took to heaven will be his forever.

We shall be like him, we shall have physical bodies like him (no blood), yet without the scars of the cross that He still bears.

To give acceptance to the "spiritual body" view is a violation of scriptures.

We are "new creatures" created in Christ Jesus, and there is not a created creature that doesn't have a physical body. The angels, the devil, the cherubim, seraphim, Heaven, hell, lake of fire, new earth, new heaven, ... all have physical shape and form.

 

[convicted1]

Spiritual?????

That is not correct.

When Jesus arose, he didn't change bodies. He had the SAME physical body as he had on the cross. He showed the scars and wounds. He ate, he talked. He passed through walls just as he was able to pass through the crowds unnoticed. He was all God before the cross and after the cross.

His body in heaven is the same as that which was on earth except for the lack of blood. The Apostles saw him being taken into the heavens and the angels specified that that SAME Jesus would return. He won't have a new body - that same body that he took to heaven will be his forever.

We shall be like him, we shall have physical bodies like him (no blood), yet without the scars of the cross that He still bears.

To give acceptance to the "spiritual body" view is a violation of scriptures.

We are "new creatures" created in Christ Jesus, and there is not a created creature that doesn't have a physical body. The angels, the devil, the cherubim, seraphim, Heaven, hell, lake of fire, new earth, new heaven, ... all have physical shape and form.

Okay. So then one-third of the triune God is off-kilter then. God is Spirit, then there's the Holy Spirit, and Jesus in a physical body? How can they triune, how can they be ONE, if they don't agree in Their appearance?

Jesus, on earth, had an earthly body. Even after He arose, He had this earthly body. I do not deny this. It is in the bible, and I will amen this until I am called home. He ate and they handled Him after He arose. But the scriptures state that no flesh will glory in God's presence.

 

[agedman]

1 Corinthians 15:42-49

New International Version (NIV)

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

It is important to note that the weight of 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 rests squarely upon verse 42. The other verses draw emphasis and clarity.

This passage is not saying the body is "spiritual" as if it were formless or ghostly. Rather, it is stating that the body is raised incorruptible. It is a body, it has physical attributes as a body.

Moses and Elijah appearing to the Apostles and Christ had physically definable bodies. Christ at that time did not remove himself from the physical form, rather the physical form displayed the pure attributes of the heavenly.

The rich man in hell had a physical body.

The body is still a physical body and this passage only means that there is an exchange of corruptible for incorruptible. That the body no longer bears in it the "image" of the earthly, but the "image" of the heavenly.

 

[agedman]

Okay. So then one-third of the triune God is off-kilter then. God is Spirit, then there's the Holy Spirit, and Jesus in a physical body? How can they triune, how can they be ONE, if they don't agree in Their appearance?
.

What form does an egg take?

It has three distinct parts and functions, yet it is one.

Christ is God in the flesh.

The Father is Spirit, yet Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be sent to rebuke the world and comfort/guide the believer. Does that then mean that the Father is the Holy Spirit?

Jesus said, I am with you always, yet He is in heaven interceding. Which is it?

God is one, yet three.

The Scriptures tell us that at the end, when the white throne judgment is finished, that Jesus kneels before the Father in submission and presents His bride. How does He do that and yet be God?

How did the psalmist say, "The Lord said to my lord..."

See all through the Scriptures there is this interchange that in our human mind is irrational, but in God's character fits perfectly.

It is the same with what Paul is discussing in Corinthians. The corruptible is replaced by the incorruptible.

Here also is a reflection of another thread's postings. The "natural man" versus the "new creation." They both indwell the believer, but one day (soon I hope for me) this agedman will die, and the corruptible "natural man" with its fallen will, and prone to sinfully fail will be done away. What is left is that which Christ created, implanted, nurtured, and will harvest - in a new body.

Christ did not need a new body. His body was already incorruptible. His nature was not fallen, His natural will was not rebellious to God, and His attributes did not wither, decay, change or fail. "Same yesterday, today..."

We shall be like him.

 

[asterisktom]

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7

I hope God opens your eyes to your rudeness to a fellow Christian.

I do acknowledge Christ as come in the flesh, just as you do. If you care to actually read that passage you quoted you will see it refers to our Lord's Incarnation, not His Parousia.

For my part I don't call you "deceiver" or "Antichrist". But I do say that, for the present, you have been deceived, valuing the tradition of men over the pure Word of God.

 

[asterisktom]

Brother Tom, I am in complete agreement with you in regards to Jesus not having the same body in heaven that He had while here on earth. No flesh will glory in God's presense(sp?). And I am also in complete agreement with you that when we enter through the portal of heaven, we will have a body likened unto His body, spiritual.

Here's where we differ. I do see Jesus coming again in the cloud. When He calls, all the bodies of the CHRISTians that are lying in their grave, under water, had been burned to ashes, blown to pieces, etc., will rise up(Christians rising first), and those who are alive and remain(CHRISTians), will be changed in a moment and twinkling of an eye(going from physical bodies to spiritual bodies), and they will meet Jesus in the air. Those bodies will be given a new spiritual body, iow. Then, those who died in their sins, and those who are sinners alive at His second coming, will be given a spiritual body as well. Those souls in hell will come forth and be reunited with their new spiritual body, and all sinners will then be cast into the lake of fire(the second death). Jesus stated, "Blessed are they who hath part in the first resurrection, on such, the second death(cast into the lake of fire), hath no power.

So, I agree with you on the bodies we get in heaven, but I disagree that Jesus' second coming has already taken place. I pray that God blesses you in China, and that you may have a very Merry CHRISTmas!! I love you, Brother Tom!!

i am I AM'S!!

Willis

And God bless you too, Willis. This will be a day of wall-to-wall kids at my Dad's house. It will be fun, but I won't be posting much. I just wanted to thank you for your kind and gracious note.

If I do find the time (before they descend on us like so many monkeys from OZ - I am in Kansas now) I will comment on a few of your comments here.

Merry Christmas, to you and yours.

 

[asterisktom]

To give acceptance to the "spiritual body" view is a violation of scriptures.
...
We are "new creatures" created in Christ Jesus, and there is not a created creature that doesn't have a physical body. The angels, the devil, the cherubim, seraphim, Heaven, hell, lake of fire, new earth, new heaven, ... all have physical shape and form.

Underlining mine. This is a new one on me. Physical angels?

 

[JesusFan]

Underlining mine. This is a new one on me. Physical angels?

what form do you see jesus as being in right now?

JW believe that his physical body decomposed away, and God raised him as a spirit being...

What body/form was jesus raised up as, and what form is he in right now?

 

[JesusFan]

Well, it's all been "spiritualized." It's an out. Most of this interpretation stems from others feling they had to defend Jesus and His Words that said generation would not pass away until all is fulfilled, so they jumped on Josephus and the spiritualization due to extra biblical "revelation" ensued. Fear of man caused these answers.

Did those in the church scattered around the world also get raptured, and we have records from all of these other regions of these facts?

The millennium is not now.

He came in physical form the first time, and He will and is coming in His glorified body next time.

They're neo-gnostics my friend.

problem for them is that 'soon/suddenly" does NOT always refer to him coming back time wise soon from the date of the writting of Gospel, but that WHEN he comes back, everything will wrap up really quick at that time!

The Church always held to the immenience of His returning, NEVER to having it already happening!