The Papal State & Vatican City

[The Biblicist]

To the end of dispelling ignorance on the often false charge of 'salvation by works,' I will post again the prisoner illustration I have used before.


[[/FONT][/COLOR]Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just. .

Go learn the meaning of "freely" in Romans 3:24. The same word translated here is translated elsewhere in reference to Christ "without a cause" - they hated him "without a cause" found in him to hate him.

Likewise justification is "freely" or without any cause found in the "ungodly" to justify them.

God is responsible for giving a NEW HEART which possesses the right intent and attitudes (Ezk. 36:26) not "the ungodly" - Rom. 4:5. Hence, repentance and faith are GIFTS of God (Eph. 2:8) and "not of works" (Eph. 2:9) but "of grace (Rom. 4;16).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: The former is the basis for justification whereas the latter is the product of regeneration.

HP: Why are you not honest enough to simply state if in fact you are the former Dr. Walter or not??? If I missed your explanation, just say so and point me to it.

To the list: Biblicist, or Dr Walter (possibly) has stated it precisely backwards. Neither the prophets of old, nor Christ himself, nor any of the apostles taught that we repent or exercise faith due to, or as a result of, being regenerated. If one is looking for false philosophy DHK, look no further than to the comments by Biblicist/(Dr. Walter?) on regeneration, when it occurs and what it accomplishes.

Regeneration is the results of, NOT ANTECEDENT to, fulfilling the conditions of salvation. God creates in man a new heart in response to the fulfillment of those stated conditions, and not antecedent to them. Man first repents and exercises faith. without which regeneration of the heart will not take place.

 

[The Biblicist]

To the list: The comments by Biblicist are founded in either ignorance or malice, one or the other. Which is it?

Calm down HP I am not attacking your person! My comments are based on neither ignorance or malice but the normal ordinary response to any system of soteriology that includes works in its final justification for obtaining eternal life - no matter the semantics used to justify that conclusion.

Think about it from our perspective. You deny the doctrine OSAS don't you? Of course you do. The basis for OSAS is that justification before God is based solely and only upon the substitutionary righteousness and death of Jesus Christ (his faithfulness) imputed to the "ungodly." Hence, the believer stands "in Christ" before God and the only possibility of being condemned "in Christ" is if God can find fault with Christ within whom we stand positionally before God. Hence, OSAS.

From our perspective, you confuse sanctification with justification. We veiw sanctification as the progressive and thus always PARTIAL outworking by the Holy Spirit of the holiness and righteousness created by God (regenerated/quickened) of the new nature/inward man/new man that is only brought to completion in glorification. We do not veiw progressive sanctification as the determining factor of justification before God but rather the determining factor of experiential salvation here and now and rewards hereafter.

So, my response was neither based upon ignorance or malice but CONSISTENCY with our position of salvation in response to your view of salvation.

So calm down and just look where we are coming from!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sanctification is a topic of obvious differences, but if we cannot get past simple concepts of conditions of salvation verses the grounds of salvation, what hope is there to jump into a discussion on sanctification?

Let it suffice to say on this thread that sanctification is thought of in differing senses as well. One indeed is sanctified 'in a sense' at salvation but that does not preclude the Scriptural notion of a deeper working of the Spirit of God in the life of the believer.

 

[The Biblicist]

Sanctification is a topic of obvious differences, but if we cannot get past simple concepts of conditions of salvation verses the grounds of salvation, what hope is there to jump into a discussion on sanctification?

We cannot get past it because repentance and faith are not regarded as works in the scriptures"

"BY GRACE are ye saved through faith and that not of yourself, for it is a gift of God not of works" - Eph. 2:8-9

"It is of faith that it might be of grace" - Rom. 4;16

"And if by grace it is no more OF WORKS otherwise grace is no more grace" - Rom. 11:6

"FREELY by grace through faith..." - Rom. 4:24

We cannot get past it because the new heart is given by God in regeneration and not part of justification.

We cannot get past it because the faithfulness of Christ is the basis for justification in Scripture - Rom. 3:24-26.

We cannot get past it because justification deals with our POSITION in Christ before God in heaven and regeneration deals with Christ in us before men on earth.

We cannot get past it because POSITIONAL sanctification is not the same as PROGRESSIVE sanctification - 1 Cor. 1:2

 

[DHK]

Scripture is not the only source of God given, God inspired truth. Scripture is not even the best source for some revealed intuitive truths. If it were not for other sources of revelation of truth by God, intuitively in particular, you could not discern truth from Scripture period. Moral concepts such as justice and love would fall as dead letter..... as evident by the lack of true understanding of moral issues in so many theological circles.

The statement above is pure heresy.

 

[DHK]

How am I doing so far DHK? Do you recognize any of these familiar passages of Scripture? Have I ever posted them before to your knowledge? How many times have I posted them over the last several years? Possibly numerous times? It is OK to be honest. :thumbs:

Edersheim was a Jew. You use these verses out of context. Repentance in this way is simply reformation which damns a person to hell. It will not save.

 

[DHK]

No, faith is the CONDITION or STATE of the new heart given by God (Ezek. 36:26) and is a "gift" not of works (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:16) but of grace whereas faithfulness is a product of regeneration (Eph. 2:10).

You are deceived. Those Scriptures describe faith but do not define faith.
Faith is confidence in the word of another; Biblical faith is confidence in the Word of God. We exercise faith every day. I exercise faith in my wife, that when she tells me what she will do she will do it. She will not let me down. How much more can I put my faith or confidence in the promises of the Living God who will never let me down for his promises are secure and eternal.

Faith has an object. The object of my faith is sometimes my wife.
In salvation the object of my faith is always Christ. He alone can provide salvation. If the object of my is anything else but Christ I am doomed. He alone can save! His blood cleanses us from all sin. Works cannot save. They take away from the cleansing power of the blood of Christ. They declare that the blood of Christ was not sufficient to pay the penalty for my sins. It is blasphemy and an insult to Christ who, by his blood did pay the penalty of all my sin--past, present and future!

 

[The Biblicist]

You are deceived.

When I said it was the "state" or "condition" of the new heart all I meant was that the "new" heart given by God is not an unrighteous heart but a "new" heart created in truel holiness and righteousness. Unbelief is unrighteousness (Jn. 3:17-18). God gives a righteous believing heart.

Faith is confidence in the word of another; Biblical faith is confidence in the Word of God. We exercise faith every day. I exercise faith in my wife, that when she tells me what she will do she will do it. She will not let me down. How much more can I put my faith or confidence in the promises of the Living God who will never let me down for his promises are secure and eternal.

Not all men have Biblical faith (2 Thes. 3:2). Biblical faith is not mere confidence in someone or something. The ability to believe the gospel or repent of sin is inseparable from the condition of the heart. A heart that LOVES darkness and HATES light is incapable of faith in Christ ("will not come") so long as that is its condition and no man can change his own heart.

Biblical gospel faith involves the state of the heart in regard to its emotional make up (love and hate) and mental state - for "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" (Rom. 10:10). Repentance is a change of mind produced by the grace of God not by the ability of fallen man and that is precisely why faith is "of grace" (Rom. 4:16)

In salvation the object of my faith is always Christ. He alone can provide salvation. If the object of my is anything else but Christ I am doomed. He alone can save! His blood cleanses us from all sin. Works cannot save. They take away from the cleansing power of the blood of Christ. They declare that the blood of Christ was not sufficient to pay the penalty for my sins. It is blasphemy and an insult to Christ who, by his blood did pay the penalty of all my sin--past, present and future!

Biblical faith in Christ is not ordinary faith that lost people exercise every day for several reasons. First, it requires something that no lost person has, HATE for sin and LOVE for Christ - that is a heart condition that no lost person has until changed by the Spirit of God.

Second, Biblical faith is rooted in God's Word of promise that brings forth a confident expectation in the object embraced (Heb. 11:1) and that is not possible apart from the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Thes. 1:5) and that is precisely why it is "fruit" of the Spirit.