And yet the older son as Jesus was pointing out like the Pharisees was lost. Why he was filled with Jealousy anger and strife. Just as the Pharisees yet he too was called a son.Only one problem. Who was he when he was in the hog wallow? He was the SON! (It's right there in the title of the parable "The Prodigal SON.")His relationship with his father had not changed. He was BORN into the family of his father. He was the SON. Only his fellowship with his father was changed. When he came to himself he realized he was a SON. So he went home.
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The Parable of the Lost-Centering on the Lost son
- Thread starter revmwc
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Non-sequitur. We are not talking about when salvation takes place. We are talking about why salvation takes place.
Did you build me a house because I paid you to do so, or did you build me a house because you loved me and wanted to lift me out of the filth I was living in?
It almost seems like, rather than dealing with the scripture I posted, you would rather change the subject. I do that a lot when I can't formulate a cogent response.
As I said in my earlier post, God hates sin. But allows it.
God hates the consequences of sin. But allows it.
Either "all men" means "all men everywhere without distinction" or it means something else. The context indicates it means "all of us." Not all of everybody, but all of us.
Again, I know how hard this is. I went through it myself several decades ago. I was saved, baptized, married, and called to preach in a church that believed much as you do. My first pastor, whom I had the greatest respect for, would agree with you on just about every point.
But when I began a close, careful, critical study of biblical soteriology I discovered, much to my horror, that I was wrong. My faith, my discipleship, my calling, my walk, in fact every good thing in me, was the result of my salvation, and never the cause of it.
What we have to understand is that unbelief is a sin. We can't wipe the slate clean just by stopping the sin of unbelief any more than we can clean the slate just by stopping sinning in any other way. So, if we just stop sinning the sin of unbelief, and start to believe, the sin of unbelief is still there. If the sin of unbelief was not paid for on the cross, there is no way to erase that sin. If, on the other hand, the sin of unbelief was paid for on the cross, that sin does not hinder the All Powerful God of Creation from saving you. He can overcome all your sin. Even the sin of unbelief. And then, immediately, you believe, and follow. All of God. None of me.
In the immortal words of Charles Wesley (whose theology was much better than his borhter John's):
Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
Note what brother Charles says,
"Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;"
He was in bondage to the law of sin and death.
"Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,"
He was born again, regenerated, quickened to new Life in Christ!
"I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;"
He not only didn't "place his faith" in anything! He was still asleep.
The Light of Life filled his cell while he still slept.
"My chains fell off, my heart was free,"
The result was he was no longer in bondage to the law of sin and death. For the first time his heart was free to follow Christ.
"I rose, went forth, and followed Thee."
And the result? He rose in faith, went forth in faith, and followed Christ, in faith.
Not his own faith. Not some "innate" faith, but the faith infused by the "quickening ray" of God's regenerating Grace.
This whole song is his personal testimony.
By what authority do you condemn the other son to hell? Who are you to judge another man's servant, or another man's son? (Roman's 14:4.)
And you seem to have overlooked what God says about the other son, "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine." And you say he was lost? God disagrees.
So why are they condemned according to Jesus in verse 18 it ends like this, "condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Who is responsible for their unbelief? The person or God?
I didn't Jesus did! So let me ask this was Jesus directing this to Pharisees and scribes who were murmuring? If so the elder son represented them how because he was murmuring about the father accepting the sinner who had been in the pig pen. So we're the scribes and Pharisees saved or lost? They after all chose to reject Christ.
They are condemned by their sin, including their sin of unbelief. That seems patently clear. The bible makes it very plain in John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
What part of "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine" indicates condemnation. You did read the parable, didn't you?
So where in that verse does it say they are condemned because God failed to supply them faith? Also where exactly does it say they are condemned because of their sin in that verse?
So you believe that the scribes and Pharisees of whom Jesus clearly directed this parable were sons and therefore saved, because they were the religious leaders?
God does not fail. He always fully accomplishes His decretal will.
"The wages of sin is death" seems pretty clear. And unbelief being a sin is pretty clearly indicated by their being condemned.
If you are not going to be honest about what I have posted, this discussion is over.
Who paid the price for sin? And Whois condemned to the lake of fire and why? Revelation 20:15 states whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAke of fire. Neither of these places where Jesus shows us what occurs with the unsaved mentioned their sins condemning them not one. Condemned for one reason failing to believe on the Son! Because with Jesus' death on the cross the wages of sin was met. Except of course the sin of unbelief.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
You and I have a different interpretation for the scriptures you posted. I, rather, chose to deal with one specific argument which you incorrectly labeled a non-sequitur, and then offered a jab that, in my opinion, is far beneath you.
You maintain that I believe that God's work is not finished if I have to take the initiative to believe and accept that finished work. I maintain that God's work is indeed finished – 100% complete, whether or not I accept or reject his salvation, it is nonetheless completely finished.
Back to this house that I built for you simply because I love you and you needed this house. Is it not complete until you move in?
The elder son was a type of the scribes and Pharisees if as you said I was condemning him then so too would you be saying those he represents as a type of would be as he is, either saved or lost correct or not?
How can it be completely finished if you have to do something more to get it?
No, I don't. I know you believe "it is finished." What I am pointing out is the logical inconsistency of believing it is finished yet still needs something more before it can save you.
"Pastor_Bob
Hello Pastor Bob. Thanks for responding and offering some clarification to our interaction.
Clarification is always welcome as I have no desire to "catch you" or anyone else by using a word out of place .
Here is what you said, and here is what I "read".
I would dispute this language as it is unbiblical. You quote from Jer. 29....but that was urging the people who already professed to know God to seek Him in prayer, not to "give Him their heart"???
You did not clarify this phrase that you use twice. God had already done His part.
If you are speaking of the active and passive obedience of Jesus earthly ministry yes He has accomplished the work of redemption and that work of the cross is finished as declared by our Saviour on the cross.
But that is the work of propitiation toward the Father.
Has the work of the Spirit been completed?
Does the Spirit convict the world of sin?
Does the Spirit effectual draw those given to the Son by the Father from all around the world?
Is the Spirit still giving new hearts to those being saved?
These actions and many more as I am sure you would agree are still going on...so when I read what you wrote this is what comes to mind in part.
That being said, God is very active in the application and sustaining of His people in all the stages of salvation;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
[/QUOTE]
He will seek and save that which is lost....it is certain , The passage is contrasting God's love and care for His people as they stand against mockers and scoffers.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
All men, not Israel only....yes, all men,,,,
all men, rich or poor, yes...
all men, young or old, yes
But God is very willing that multitudes perish, because we read about it.
Hello Pastor Bob. Thanks for responding and offering some clarification to our interaction.
Clarification is always welcome as I have no desire to "catch you" or anyone else by using a word out of place .
Okay....sorry if I did that and once again I have had that happen to me several times on BB and do not like when that happens....so let me now clarify my statement as I am taking a break and sitting at a keyboard.
Here is what you said, and here is what I "read".
Jesus is explaining the new birth to him.
I would dispute this language as it is unbiblical. You quote from Jer. 29....but that was urging the people who already professed to know God to seek Him in prayer, not to "give Him their heart"???
You did not clarify this phrase that you use twice. God had already done His part.
If you are speaking of the active and passive obedience of Jesus earthly ministry yes He has accomplished the work of redemption and that work of the cross is finished as declared by our Saviour on the cross.
But that is the work of propitiation toward the Father.
Has the work of the Spirit been completed?
Does the Spirit convict the world of sin?
Does the Spirit effectual draw those given to the Son by the Father from all around the world?
Is the Spirit still giving new hearts to those being saved?
These actions and many more as I am sure you would agree are still going on...so when I read what you wrote this is what comes to mind in part.
Again...non cals will speak of the cross as God's work of salvation....and that is very awesome for sure.
That being said, God is very active in the application and sustaining of His people in all the stages of salvation;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
[/QUOTE]
agreed if you mean the cross only.
Every single person spoken of in 2 pet 3:9 is going to be saved, because God has ordained, destined and decreed it to be so....
He will seek and save that which is lost....it is certain , The passage is contrasting God's love and care for His people as they stand against mockers and scoffers.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
No...it does not "clearly mean that". God never intended that all men be saved, or they would be.
All men, not Israel only....yes, all men,,,,
all men, rich or poor, yes...
all men, young or old, yes
But God is very willing that multitudes perish, because we read about it.
Man is obligated to believe yes. It is uncovered sin that will cause them to perish, because many never evenhear about Jesus.
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I am disabled. I lack the capacity to take possession of that beautiful house. Unless, of course, you carry me into the house.
Repeating these falsehoods is not going to make them true. In fact you willfully go directly against the scripture.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
My friend, you're doing this all after the fact. Your OP doesn't glorify God, it glorifies man. You say the Holy Spirit gave it to you, yet it doesn't bring glory to Christ once. You simply will not listen to the truth and reason given you, nor will you own up to the fact your OP glorifies man alone.
You can preach up a drummed up message after the fact all you want to, but it does not undo the other, nor does it justify the other at all. Your OP was man made soteriology. It glorified man and man only, and you say it came from God. You are being misled my friend.
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