The Paradox

Wow, Curtis, why do you insist on making this so much work?

I'm guessing from your question that your answer to my first question is no. Am I correct?

But did Peter persist in his denials?

No, then it doesn't answer the bigger question does it?

 

How does one then know if they are "truly saved"?

If you can't know this and merely think you are saved when you are not actualy saved, where does that assurance come in?

Ron

 

How does one produce the fruit of salvation if they were never on the vine? If the person was never saved yet still has the ability to do works that are as good as Billy Graham's, then where did they get that kind of power and strength to do such good in the name of Christ? Jesus says that it is impossible to bear good fruit if you are not on the vine.

Again, one must forsake reason if they want to make any sense out of OSAS.

 

Being a part of the elect can be verified simply by being able to say (with the believers spirit) that:

Jesus is Lord...that he has conquered death, Has put all enemies under him and now sits on the right hand of the father.

its an acceptance of truth, and comprehension of knowledge through Faith

and if someone seems to think they can fool others within the elect..
dont forget the necessary and integral ingredient of Christ anointing within them..

love for the brothers, which is expressed via the nature of forgiveness and mercy. towards their brothers and especially for their enemies.

now the osas problem exists when a misunderstanding of the process of Salvation occurs.
the first thing that God does before you even know anything of God is that he gives you a new spirit. one in which is a part of you and that you cant refuse, of give back. to say that your eyes are opened to see the things of God is a misnomer. they cant..they are carnal and can only comprehend carnal concepts. To "see" the things of God requires you to be given "new eyes". one in which only comes with the "new spirit". everything is new and you dont even know it at first.

 

trying2understand,

1Jn.5:13 says: "These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God; that YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Rom. 8:16 says: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."

In short, the Bible teaches that we are all guilty before God and the penalty for sin is death. Jesus came to pay that penalty for us in our place. 1Cor.15:1-4 states that Christ was crucified in our place, was buried, and physically rose the third day for our justification(Rom.4:25). Let me say in passing, that just because Jesus paid for the penalty for sins, does not mean we don't sin. We still are accountable for our actions as children of God(2Cor.5:10). The end of that judgement is rewards or lack therof(1Cor.3:12-15). Bottom line is, if you "believe" what the Bible says about this matter, you can know you have eternal life because it is impossible for God to lie. Praise God! There is my Peace. To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord(2Cor.5:8). To depart from the body is to be with Christ(Phil.1:23)

 

Hi Ron, I think the assurance is based on a trust in God. When I think about a salvation that is from God given to me I am assured no matter what that I can't goof it up. Could I say in outward words I reject Jesus? I can't imagine that but if I did for some reason it couldn't change my salvation status if I am already in God's hand. What I believe happens if someone loses heart, not faith as faith is something else, we are to restore that person to walk in the works God has pre-planned for him. Peter in a time of confusion and doubt denied Jesus (as Curtis pointed out) but he was restored to his "works" and ended up being what you consider the first Pope. From "denier of Christ to Pope in one easy lesson" could be the name of a Catholic book

Words like "never", "eternal", "everlasting", "saved"(past tense), etc..., from God's word give me much assurance as well.

In Christ,
Brian

 

No, Jesus didn't pay the penalty of our sins, if he did that then he would be burning in hell for eternity for that is the penalty of sin. Rather he atoned for our sins. Jesus has freed us from the law and now we have the system of grace.

 

Jesus is the propitiation(payment) of our sins(Rom.3:25). By the way, atonement means "to pay for". Rom.5:11

Jesus did go to hell, He just did not stay there(Acts 2:27-31).

Jesus did not remove the law(Matt.5:18), just the penalty of it. Lying is still lying. As a Christian you will answer to unconfessed sin, but praise God you won't go to hell for it.

 

I know I'm late getting into this discussion, however there I do want to reply to first post on this topic.

It seems you have a corrupted theology.

Belief: A strictly HUMAN condition. God has no need to have belief in anything for God knows everything! Therefore, God has no belief to give to man! "Belief" resides in the HUMAN alone, and not in All Knowing Deity! Belief cannot be given to man, man must learn what is knowledge and either believe what is learned or the opposite which is "not believe". There are no other options!

You are right, God does not give, nor does He take Salvation to or from man! God established that SALVATION is the result of HUMAN BELIEF IN GOD, God's only Son, and the Holy Spirit...All of whom are the same God, is required of man for SALVATION! No man who does not believe in God, especially His Son Jesus, will be saved. We ALL know and understand that human belief in nearly everything is subject to change based upon the knowledge that one possesses about the object of belief. Belief can increase and it can diminish, and it can even end! So it is entirely up to man as to what man believes. To maintain one's belief in something, one must reinforce the initial belief with corroborating knowledge that is gained by the individual human through God Given human sensory mechanisms.

When one receives knowledge that contradicts or that is deceptive, or outright lies, one must determine for themself whether or not that knowledge is the truth, and that is where the Holy Spirit comes in. When ones heart is right with God, the Holy Spirit confirms or denies knowledge received by the one.

"Accepting Christ" is BELIEVING, first that Christ exists, Who Christ is, What Christ did for man, and What Christ promised to those who do BELIEVE. Once one stops believing any of this, and one CAN STOP BELIEVING, and thus loses the Promised SALVATION!

If, as it seems, you rule out the possibility that man can stop believing in the Christ, then there is no ground upon which further discussion can proceed.

 

Yeslew, it seems to me you are trying to make "beieve" into something it isn't. The demons believe and shutter. That is an obvious verse that everyone quotes. I use to say when I first got saved, "it's not in the believing it's in the receiving". I have learned a lot since then and know that that statement in itself is not really complete. There is a saving belief that incorporates trust, receiving and faith. We as humans are so weak that to say we have to grab on to God and hold on to the end to be saved, seems just plain silly. To say that there is a belief that causes the very hand of God to swoop down and hold on to us forever, seems to be a much more solid way to look at belief and a God who is faithful to the end.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Hi Brian,

Now how would you tie that to knowledge that one is saved?

By that I mean, what do you do with those who act as though they no longer believe?

Some others say they were never saved to begin with.

What do you say?

Ron

 

Then you would overlook how God made us. You also overlook the fact that belief is a human condition and not something required of deity. Belief based on experience is not faith but knowledge. It is faith that humans require for salvation! That is not to say that salvation is something that humans are capable of, for salvation is truly a gift of God, given in His Grace toward humanity. Salvation is not something that can be gained through human effort, but it does require human belief which is faith.

 

lighthouse, to atone means to satisfy, strictly speaking Jesus didn't pay in the sense of suffering the penalty for by definition such a penalty is eternal death. You speak of the moral law which we are still to follow.

 

Well I hope I get lucky and God swoops down and saves me.

 

Where do you find "luck" in God's promise?

 

Just think, if you actually believed the truth from the Bible about the penalty for sin you wouldn't have to be arguing about whether Jesus paid the penalty, or just atoned for it, or took away the penalty....blah blah.

You want to solve this problem REAL fast?

Lose the lie, and believe the truth.

The wages of sin is DEATH.

Jesus paid the penalty for sin (DEATH) by His death on the Cross!

What a wonderful truth!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

3AngelsMom, You are correct.....Period!

 

Yeslew, now you have added faith to belief. At first it was just belief. I am glad you see that it is a belief that is different from the belief that, for example, My keyboard is white. As I said before saving belief invoves receiving, trusting, and faith all tangled up together. They are not really seperate they work together. The proof that it is real is then in the living out of that belief, that is performing the "works" or "deeds" planned out for us by God. It all works together perfectly. I belief that something God has worked out so perfectly will not be able to be messed up by even us.

Ron, In most cases the person who once acted like a Christian but now doesn't will be the person Jesus himself said he would say to, "I NEVER knew you". Like I said before, it is the person whose heart is like the 2nd soil. For a few who acted like Christians but now don't, I believe God will use others to bring them back into the fold (meaning close fellowship). There will be some fruit in those kind of folks, though probably not seen by anybody outside immediate family and friends. God will send His people to those brothers and sisters until he takes the person home. Most of those "backslidden" Christians will be restored again before they die. (That is just speculation, based on scripture as a whole, I don't have a verse in mind on that part of the issue - just being honest )

Ron, Hope that answered the question. If not, rephrase the question and I will try again.

Ron, Thanks as always for your posts, your questions always cause me to really think things out.

Hope you and yours are well.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Briguy,
Human belief is the single key ingredient...Period. Without it, a human WILL NOT gain the rest. No man will strive toward Godliness with out believing that God exists. No man will take the actions necessary to gain the reinforcement unto fulfledged faith if one does not first believe.

The Holy Spirit has little power over those who do not first believe there is a God. Such disbelief hardens one from receiving what the Holy Spirit gives.