The Paradox

Yeah well, whatever.

Yelsew, I guess you missed the sarcasm.

 

yelsew,

your human belief (spirit) is in a state of death.

your human belief (spirit) has been exchanged without your (souls) knowledge or consent.

too bad..maybe you could have argued with God that You didnt want a new spirit. that would have been logical and rational. being that your old belief structure wanted to Be a God unto itself.

salvation begins not with your preknowledge or consent but rather a pillaging and kidnapping and premature judgement of your old spirit. It has been judged guilty and It is now placed in a state of Death. (somewhere?).

you have been given something new. something given to you "other than" anything you can comprehend.

you are a spiritual baby. not knowing anything or even being able to comprehend or respond.

your new spirit is a part of you. it comes with a preset nature that is contained by the faith of another.

you dont know this. you will not know this until your taught this. you are sealed with the promise that you will (at death at least) return to God as his child because you have his spirit within you.

do you have faith. not the faith of the carnal spirit. its in death. you have the faith that comes with your new spirit. its not yours. yet it will be as soon as you recognize or acknowledge its existence. yet its a gift from God.

belief in this sense is simply saying yes or no to what the spirit is communication to you.

its simply an acknowledgement of what is. is it your mind that making these determinations. Yes
your mind has begun to comprehend what your new faith of your new spirit is and in turn learns and acknowledges that it is.
it is nothing of us. yet it is a comprehension of something other than what was called our old nature that we previously possessed.

that other than comes pre-lived.
it comes by the faith and support of another.
it exists because it believes it exists.
so that we cant screw it up.

try asking yourself something very simple.

at death will your belief of God bring you to God?
or will His faith in Himself bring you to Him?

Me2

 

So, since we are just mindless creatures who are otherwise going to hell, why does God chose to give the new spirit to some and not the others? Is there like a occupancy limit in heaven?

 

Let's break it down, Curtis.

Do you agree that once you are saved, that no matter what you do in the future, you will remain saved? Including the explicit rejection of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord?

A simple yes or no will do.

Can any person know with absolute certainty, that they will never do such at any time between the present and their death?

Again a simple yes or no will do.

Can anyone know with absolute certainty that they are among the elect?

Again, Yes or no? </font>[/QUOTE]Those that believe in OSAS has yet to directly answer these questions. Why is that? Don't be a politician. That's why these threads go so long and pop up somewhere else. People don't answer question directly as in a direct conversation. If your answer is no, then let it be no, and provide a scripture of why. And then be prepared to be questioned on those scriptures. But you can't get anywhere without communication. Don't talk at each other (Christian or Not).

We know that God is not confused, correct??? So, I believe we serve a God that is able to communicate effectively with his creation. If this is true, then scripture cannot and should not be in conflict with itself (unless something is added or taken away -- Which God Forbid). Having said that, please just answer the question so that we can move on. Don't answer with feelings and lack biblical backing.
Prov 18:2 "A fool finds no pleasure in UNDERSTANDING but delights in airing his own opinions."
Let not any of us be found to be fools. We all (every one) brings knowledge and understanding to the table, but the bible is the great equalizer.
We can go back and forth as we have been doing and it has gotten us nowhere.
We must get rid of our pride, So that those looking for the truth can judge for themselves at this site and others site what the BIBLE teaches on Salvation.
Concerning this subject I don't believe scripture are in conflict, so if you find yourself re-explaining allot of scriptures to fit YOUR doctrine, then you might be making scripture say something they don't really say

After answering Trying2understand question first.
Now here are mine:

Rev 3:4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Where These scripture written to a church that Jesus know?
What is a "Church" and who is part of it?
Did these people in this church have "Soiled" cloths? Did these cloths get dirty, meaning that they were clean at one point in time?
Who gave the "Clothes"?
The people in this church that "soiled there clothes" will they walk with those who "who have not soiled their clothes" according to Jesus?

Finally what did Jesus mean when he said "I will never blot out his name from the book of life"?
"Blot out" does this mean that God somehow has power to reject people that once had their name in the "BOOK OF LIFE"?

Please answer the questions first in this order. Most of these question are simply yes/no question. I don't want to bounce around the bible right now, but stick with one passage at a time. Because if OSAS is true then the concept will agree with other biblical passages.

 

Justified Saint, we are not mindless.

we are simply enclosed within specific choices that can be made. what you decide today will determine your future outcome.

many are "called" to be a member of the marriage supper. Few have been "chosen" to be the Bride.
the question in this age to you is..have you been called, or chosen?

do you think that your decision today is a vital and integral part of that determination in the end?
thats a father allowing the son to make the decision..not a mindless robot.

heaven has no occupancy limitation. Its designed to hold everyone comfortably.
again..we have the lord, the bride and the guests at the marriage.

Christ Bride is being "chosen" in this age. their life is being experienced within the faith of Christ, while living within the constraints of this world that contains both the knowledge of Good and Evil. as well as receiving a foretaste of The Father and Sons love for the bride.

Me2

 

Me2, the question still remains, how does God decide who will get the new spirit, how does he decide who the "chosen" ones will be? It sounds like you are saying that our choices are simply evidence and reflections of a choice that has already been made for us, thus it is by no choice of ours, no persuasion of ours that we go to heaven or hell.

Can you explain the concepts of being "called" and "chosen"?

 

Good observation Tazman. The verse doesn't say they will be added and never erased, but rather that they will never be erased therefore implying that they are already in the book.

 

Tazman, I answered Ron's questions, you must have missed it. Shame on you

The second question Ron asked didn't need to be answered because I answered the verse question with a yes, but I added an explanation of course.

So, anyway, I looked at your questions and WILL answer them by tomorrow morning for sure unless I still am able today. Your questions are fair and I will answer with the condition that you answer the ones that will foloow my answers. Both sides of this issue can put eachother on a slippery slope, I guess we will see who is able to ski better when all is said and done. More to come.

In Christ,
Brian

btw, how come I can never edit anymore?

 

Justified Saint,

first man was created to glorify God.

God chooses who and how. and whos to say if anyone doesnt know of God and cries out to him if they werent already foreknown to do so and be "saved"?

next the groups that are of the called and chosen are both predestined to be "saved"

the difference between the called and chosen are that the called call Jesus their Christ.while the chosen call jesus their Christ and Lord.

sounds simple..

yet it takes years to understand this. there are also many trials and persecutions that are used to prove such a difference in a believer.
yet everyone who is inseminated by the father has the same opportunities as anyone else to be of the chosen. it requires desiring to successfully complete the sanctification process that is laid before them.

and would it be unfair to others if God help you to become better if you asked for help while others didnt?

is it unfair if your desire is stronger than others allowing you to aquire larger amounts of Knowledge about who God is as compared to others?

we only have ourselves to blame if we allow this opportunity to elapse without trying. even if there is a simple desire. wouldnt you think that God grants those the opportunity even if the desire to know God is a mere spark and not a burning flame?

those are the juxtapositions that we all see, yet we're admonished to work with our own hands. so that in the end. we can only blame ourselves if opportunities are wasted on alternative choices.

after its all said and done. it always comes down to do you love God? and Love man? and understanding this concepts..

you see, we have all the knowledge within the spirit that God gives us. Its the Love that is tried by fire. knowing in the end that God loves everyone and we're all the same in his eyes.
thats his desire for us. that we see all men the way he see us. another earmark of the "chosen".
they see others as God see them..
someone who needs love and forgiveness and mercy

Me2

 

What makes you think that God gives you a new spirit?

Do you not realise that the human spirit is the life of the flesh, that the flesh and spirit are so inter-twined that if your "old" spirit is removed from the flesh you die?

How do you deal with the scriptures that speak of "washing" and "renewing" of the existing spirit?

God does not come along issuing "new spirits" to those he "elects", He instead cleans up the existing spirit, leaving it intact with the flesh for which it is the life, thus changing the life of the individual.

The spirit you are born with is the only spirit you will ever have...period!

So, Don't be ignorant my brethren! Learn the truth!

 

Me2,

Where'd ya get that silly notion?

 

Brother Adam,

Do you agree, and are just being funny, or do you disagree, and that is your way of saying it?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Yelsew,

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

not renewing your spirit. but renewing your mind.

as in changing your past decisions that were accumulated from being lead by a carnal spirit.

and now I have a question for You..
who is "in you", and how did "he" get there ?

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Me2

 

Ok Me2 I see your point, but I don't want to get into a discussion on predestination.

Yelsew, I agree 100%. Our old spirits are cleansed and made holy. I was merely rephrasing a view expressed by Me2, again had you been following the flow of discussion there would have been no need for you to jump in once again and confuse the issue.

 

Justified saint,

was not a curse placed on our spirit by God when Adam chose to sin against God?

our spirit is cursed. It contains sin. it is contaminated to enter into the presence of God.

the only way to uncontaminate it is...well it cant be.

when we are judge before God, Our old spirit is found Guilty of this curse and is placed in death where it belongs.

but we get a SECOND chance. if and only if a substitute can take our place in judgement.

Jesus christ is our substitute. He lived as we have, yet without sinning , died and has been resurrected from the dead by the His father to be that substitute for us.

The father has made a miraculous spiritual surgery as he has seperated our old spirit at judgement, disposed of our old spirit in death, and has taken our substitutes spirit and grafted it to our soul.

the father has literally raised us up from the dead with Jesus spirit by faith.

regeneration or renewing of the MIND takes place as we learn from the Holy Spirit of what HAS HAPPENED to us, AFTER it HAPPENED.

Our new spirit contains all the gifts, and all knowledge, and all fruits.

It has its own faith. and It is eternal never to be judged again.

our minds is what is required to be renewed. not our spirit. we dont take a spiritual bath.

we are to accept the truth and dispose of error, or we can say we die a little death everytime we change our mind from falsehoods and replace it with the truth of reality of Who God is and Who we are becoming in Christ.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

they confess that the spirit of Christ is not within them. that the old spirit is still within them.. (maybe their old spirit just needs to be washed and not destroyed and replaced?)

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

the doctrine of Christ is that Christ is within them

an exchange of Old spirit and NEW spirit has actually occurred ...not changing ones mindset or ideas.

Me2

 

Our spirits are washed and the impurities are slowly weeded out, that isn't impossible, we are talking about God here. What happens to our old spirits then, where do they go?

If you want to debate it more then maybe you should take it up with Yelsew.

 

Consider this Me2, Spirit is impervious to mass. That is, there is no mass that can constrain spirit, especially the Spirit of the creator of mass. Spirit has eminent domain over mass, and that is why we behave physically the way we do. Our spirit "moves us", so to speak. When we love someone, our spirit causes our flesh to behave in accordance with our love, causing those looks, and body language toward the object of our affection. Those signs are received by the one to whom they are given, and that one responds in accordance with how they "feel" toward the sender. We cannot give our love to another, but we can behave in accordance with our love for the other.

The Spirit of God can, has the capability to, permeate us and our spirit, if our spirit is willing to be permeated. That willingness comes through 'hearing the Word' and believing that there is a God and that He loves you. God does not force Himself upon those who are not willing. "Behold I stand at the door and knock..." He does not open the door and perform an "illegal entry".

"Christ in me" means that I accept the essence of the Christ, the truth of Christ, the spirit of Christ in me.

 

Wow, Curtis, why do you insist on making this so much work?

</font>[/QUOTE]It ain't no work at all. You cannot possibly understand the OSAS doctrine if you keep asking me this.

OSAS = Once saved, is saved once. I know yer brain is clogged up with tradition, but I think you can get it if you consentrate. I believe salvation to be eternally secure, you cannot squirm out of the relationship with Christ. I've gone and poted up several verses that lead me to this conclusion, and tried to refute the scripture I felt was taken out of context. It's all here t see.

But I can't make it any clearer, and I'm not going to answer any scenario questions....

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings with the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9