the Passover Jesus celebrated with his disciples

[donnA]

For GE what the bible actualy says is never good enough, it's got to say what he wants it to say.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

We actually had manischewitz wine which was drunk at different intervals during the seder following of the passover Haggadah.
No grape juice. Wine. Sweet new wine. They didn't have any skins so I couldn't tell you if it was new wine in old skins. :laugh:

Bedikat Chametz is the night before looking for leaven or yeast in the house by candle light. I don't think this is what Jesus was doing.

GE:
I also didn't say that was what Jesus was doin. I also said and again say Jesus' did not 'do' any of the Bedikat Chamets, or Seder, or, Passover-Meal. Have you not seen I said Jesus did a New Thing? A thing he prepared his disciples through for this once for all coming Passover? A thing that He himself would be prepared by for this once for all coming Passover? This once for all coming Passover that He would 'eat' and would 'drink' Himself being its Sacrifice, Himself being its Cup? "This", says Jesus, "is MY blood"; "This" again, "is MY body" : Not that of a passover lamb not slaughter yet or not eaten yet, but TO BE slaughtered still and TO BE eaten still, as it

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

For GE what the bible actualy says is never good enough, it's got to say what he wants it to say.

GE:
No, it's you.
You show me once, where as you say, it says, Jesus "ATE". I show where every time, it says, I mean the Scriptures says, "MAY / MIGHT / CAN ... eat", any way you could possibly say it.
"They prepared for passover", is Scripture; that's what I, GE, say because it is Scripture, and not vice versa, that because I say it, it is Scripture --- like you in fact do!

But it's because GE once as always took the given data to full consequences as far as possible, and because GE does not take for granted popular opinion, that you say what you've said, falsely and insultingly; which I shall boast in for Christ's sake.

 

[annsni]

GE:
Ah, Annsni, this is the most wonderful question ever put to me, and in all Christian sincerity, thank you for it!

For His whole life in truth, the whole rest of His Life, since eternity before and for eternity after, and since He was born a human baby and until He died God in the body of mortal flesh, was all about those last hours and last three days and three nights according to the Scriptures! His eternal existence is unthinkable without these moments and events. Jesus' own words at the table confirm! His 'Intercessory prayer' of John 17, show!

Because here and now the eternal Covenant of Grace really 'kicked in', to be established once for ever in the Resurrection of the Crucified Christ of God. Here, like, or, nowhere else, is God in His Glory revealed: as, He, is! If not for these hours God would be as if even He, were transitory and of but of a moment's existence and power. Which exactly these hours were: The Eternal Life of God in one event of God who so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, both into death and in resurrection from the dead.

I fail to express the reality or truth of it in words. But I am sure you get the drift of what I'm trying to say.

Yes, what Jesus did in His last days were of utmost importance but being so focused on the small issues, I feel you're missing the bigger picture.

 

[EdSutton]

"16 So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover.
17 In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.” (Mk. 14:1, 14-18 - NKJV)"

GE:

Ed Sutton, Where is verse 15? Why have you left it out? You said enough for yourself, but not for what would be the whole picture. Ed Sutton, Why did you leave out verse 15? Because it reads: Jesus told his disciples, "He will show you a large upper room furnished and prepaired" --- already!

Now read carefully the literal text, 'ekei etoimasate hehmin': "There be you (the two disciples Jesus sent before, verse 13a) ready for us (others who will meet you there)".

FTR, I did quote verse 15. I merely did not 'bold' it, for emphasis, fort it did not mention eating.

Reread the post, and you will see this. It is right there between vs. 14 and vs. 16.

Ed

 

[Ed Edwards]

GE - Can I ask about why you have such an obsession with Jesus' last hours on earth? What about the rest of His life and after His death and resurrection? His life wasn't just about those last hours.

Because it makes a difference if Jesus was raised up on the Sabboth (last day of the week) or on Sonday (first day of the week).

Personally I worship God every day of my live.

 

[Deacon]

"The major historical and interpretive question is whether this meal was a Passover meal.
Major scholars have weighed in on both sides of the debate.

The Gospels themselves appear divided on the question. Mark 14:12 (“prepare, so that you may eat the Passover”), followed by Matthew (26:17) and Luke (22:8), apparently understands the Last Supper (14:17–25) as a Passover meal, while John 18:28 (cf. John 19:14, 31, 42) seems to imply that the Last Supper took place the day before Passover and that Jesus in fact died on Passover, 15 Nisan."
Craig A. Evans, vol. 34B, Word Biblical Commentary : Mark 8:27-16:20, (2002), 370.

 

[EdSutton]

Ja, you said something, and it may sound watertight.

But let's change your underlining, “Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?”, to, “Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?”

And then enquire after a few other things.

"Where is the guestroom where, I with my disciples, may eat, the Passover".
Where: in the room;
When "the Passover", that Passover, on it, the Passover season.
Where we may eat this Passover. It says not 'Where we shall eat the Passover Meal.
It says not, 'shall eat'; it says, 'may eat' - Jesus well knowing He won't, but the disciples would.

Ja, you said something, and it may have sounded watertight; but was not watertight.

Incidentally, the only thing I actually "said" (at this time) was " 'Nuff said! " The rest was a quoting of Scripture.

Did you not read the verses?

It also says, and I will use your preferred font, "In the evening He came with the twelve. (18) Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say unto you, one of you who eats with me shall betray me."

Did you notice what I have underlined and put in blue, here? In another place, it mentions Jesus speaking of one who would dipped his hand in the dish, along with the Lord Jesus.

I underlined "eat" and "ate" to show that it was indeed the Passover meal, and that they did, in fact, eat of it.

Frankly, I simply do not think the Lord was 'dipping his hand' into the dish, and not eating this, and merely "playing in the food" like some unruly child.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Now "14:1", dear Ed Sutton, which you never quoted, but referred to, "After two days was the Feast Day (Sabbath) of the Passover that of Unleavened Bread Feast ..." Nisan 13.

Now Mark 14:12 also exists, you know as well as I do, which refers to the day directly after this one of verse 1, upon which the Last Supper was eaten, Nisan 14, and one day before the Passover Feast Sabbath of Unleavened bread eaten.

Therefore you have two indications to the sequence of the days involved before the Feast Sabbath on which day in its fore-part and evening of night, the Passover-Meal would have been eaten as the climax of the Feast of the Passover's eight days of duration, Nisan 15.

You agree Nisan 15 was Passover's Sabbath of Unleavened Bread Feast - you have told us before - that it was the Friday.

Now how on earth do you get the Last Supper on the day _of_ the Feast Sabbath, Friday, during its beginning, the evening of 'our' Thursday night?

[Sigh!] Yes, I did quote Mk. 14:1.

And no, I do not believe or teach that the Passover meal took place on "the evening of 'our' Thursday night," nor have I said this for some 40 years. (I did ignorantly say, about that time, that the Crucifixion was on Wednesday for a year or so, until I studied the Scripture a bit more closely, and realized that this took place on Thursday, by our reckoning of time.) Nor have I even remotely agreed that the Lord was crucified on Friday, by our reckoning, for more than 40 years, either. 14 Nisan (or 14 Abib) is "Passover", and which is also referred to in the NT as "the Preparation" which, although referred to as a 'feast day' in Leviticus, is not said specifically to be a Sabbath nor an holy Convocation, unlike the Feast day of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15, which is a Sabbath, and an holy convocation, according to Leviticus 23.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

GE:
Ag, Ed Sutoon, you have said nothing of the smallest worth. You have become the Scriptures unto yourself. I cannot but answer you with disdain. If not Ed Sutton were the inventor, all lightbulbs give darkness.

I really do not know what I have ever done or said to invite such vindictiveness from you. However, keep getting on my case, and thus give some of the rest, such as DonnA a break, considering she is a lady.


Nor do I see why, when Gerhard Ebersoehn renders some phrase, it should be given more import, than any other, for that matter, but when another renders one, it is supposedly poor theology.

And especially from one who allegedly champions a particular English version, and that is the version cited from, by some other??

The phrase, which I had previously commented on of "between the evenings" is a literal rendering of the Hebrew in some of the passages in Leviticus and other Pentateuch books, according to what I have seen.

Is that incorrect?

If not, apart from an oddity of the phrasing, what import was ever given to this prior to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus?

Incidentally, it would make zero sense, for the Lord to have not eaten the Passover, considering that is what He said He was going to do -

12 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”
13 And He sent out two of His disciples and said to them, “Go into the city, and a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him. 14 Wherever he goes in, say to the master of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?”’ 15 Then he will show you a large upper room, furnished and prepared; there make ready for us.”
16 So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover.
17 In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.”
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say to Him one by one, “Is it I?” And another said, “Is it I?”[a]
20 He answered and said to them, “It is one of the twelve, who dips with Me in the dish. 21 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.” (Mk. 14:12-20 - NKJV cp. Mt. 26:17-26 & Lk. 26:7-16)

The large words in blue, are for the point of emphasis and distinction, incidentally.

And as I have previously posted, IMO, the Lord was not just dipping his hand into the dish, to play with food. [BTW, Judas could not have been dipping his hand, along with Jesus, at the same Jesus gave him the choice morsel ("the sop") of which to partake. Kinda' hard to be fishing something out of the dish, while simultaneously, receiving the mouthful of the morsel from another's hand, I would say.]

Ed

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Because it makes a difference if Jesus was raised up on the Sabboth (last day of the week) or on Sonday (first day of the week).

Personally I worship God every day of my live.

GE:
Ja, 'personally' we all do -- or are supposed to. But the Sabbath is not about 'me'; it never has been; it's about God through Jesus Christ being worshipped by his People. This is the Christian People of God: There: Where they worship their Lord _together_. This is the Christian People of God: There: _When_ they worship their Lord together.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"it makes a difference if Jesus was raised up on the Sabboth (last day of the week) or on Sonday (first day of the week)", EE.

GE:
Christian worship is all about this 'difference'.
Without this difference, there will be no witness, no proclamation, no praises, no prayers, no singing, no healing: basically because two things will be and must be wanting : No "Sabbaths'", "eating and drinking" of Christ in Spirit and Truth, "not holding the Head from Whom all the Body (of Christ's Own) by joints and bands having (spiritual) nourishment ministered", no "increase (growth) with the increase of God" but a getting "puffed up" to bursting point with self-esteem and vanity of an own religion. (The like is described further in verses 20-23.)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

We are still on track. We are still dealing with the Passover Jesus that Nisan 14 ate and drank Himself being the Lamb slaughtered and eaten and His Own blood being the Life of Him drunk.

It only extended into the Life of the Body of Christ's Own, and no longer is being celebrated a sacrifice or therefore the day of a death merely, but that Passover is now being celebrated the day of his life taken up, lifted up and exalted, "On the Sabbath Day".
He having "triumphed in it"-- having been raised from the dead --, his day of death and resurrection and Triumph is being observed and celebrated in one with "Sabbath's feasting"!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

After the two disciples who were sent before, found the room, and everything 'prepared', they made no further preparations, but, "prepared for Passover". Which means, they enjoyed the passover preparation-meal. But this time, the first time, the Providence of God, "prepared", and "prepared", not for the old passover, but for the New, that it "might be eaten". And so the disciple and Jesus 'Prepared the Passover" -- for "our Passover", the Passover of the Lamb of God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But what do I have this diatribe with myself for? This is not my dogma; this is well known Protestant teaching! What do you oppose me so for? Or why do you so disregard me, rather? This is essential, Protestant doctrine! It contains the death of trans-substantiation. It glorifies the Christ. It simplifies the Message. Only good can be said of it. But no, this is me making me the Scriptures! I ask you, why? Is this blasphemy? Is this insulting? Is this obvious, literal, confused, error?

I know what I believe! I believe (here) the Lord's Supper; not the Jews'. It's good enough for me.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I said:
"We are still on track. We are still dealing with the Passover Jesus that Nisan 14 ate and drank Himself being the Lamb slaughtered and eaten and His Own blood being the Life of Him drunk."

And now and here it struck me first time, "Great, marvelous, wonderful, beautiful, is the Mystery of Godliness"!

About half a century ago already, I noticed the difference between Exodus and the rest of the Law and the OT. I made a thorough exposition of it, the fact that Exodus places BOTH the sacrifice and the EATING, on Nisan 14, for which reason, Exodus employed for the feast days, a sunrise to sunrise reckoning.

All the subsequent references to the dating of the sacrifice and the passover-MEAL, place sacrifice, on Nisan 14 (no exceptions), and meal, on Nisan 15 (no exceptions). For this reason the sunset to sunset daycycle was instrumental - no exceptions.

I always thought this was a difficulty.
I tried to find explanations, and could only think of the old era of bondage being broken (see explained),
so that the 'old' first and day-halve of Nisan 14 fell away and back into Nisan 13 and became its last and day-halve; and Nisan 14's 'old' and last or night-halve, (now at the beginning of the new age of freedom), became the beginning and first or night-halve of Nisan 14.

Thus both sacrifice and meal fell on Nisan 14. It was the first passover.

Now in the endtime once again and for last and ever, both Sacrifice and Meal of Passover became one in the ONE Who is both Sacrifice and Meal of Yahweh's Passover. Once for all, the Lamb of God our Passover in his own body and the sacrifice of Himself, became both Sacrifice and Meal of Yahweh's Passover on, and, within, Nisan 14. It would be the Last Passover.

After sunset after this Nisan 14, the Jews on Nisan 15, would still eat their passover - which was their own in every respect, and none of Christ's.

I saw it today through this discussion; I have found what for me is a treasure of spiritual wealth, and I sincerely want to thank everyone for his or her critique, without which I still would have walked with blinkers on.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But what do I have this diatribe with myself for? This is not my dogma; this is well known Protestant teaching! What do you oppose me so for? Or why do you so disregard me, rather? This is essential, Protestant doctrine! It contains the death of trans-substantiation. It glorifies the Christ. It simplifies the Message. Only good can be said of it. But no, this is me making me the Scriptures! I ask you, why? Is this blasphemy? Is this insulting? Is this obvious, literal, confused, error?

I know what I believe! I believe (here) the Lord's Supper; not the Jews'. It's good enough for me.

I would like to differ sir. It obviously is not well known protestant teaching and I've visited many churches. You have a right to your view. I have a right to oppose it. My view is this Jesus was Jewish and was celebrating a Jewish holiday. However, you are right that he also was doing a new thing and established a new covenant. But beyond that I may disagree.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I would like to differ sir. It obviously is not well known protestant teaching and I've visited many churches. You have a right to your view. I have a right to oppose it. My view is this Jesus was Jewish and was celebrating a Jewish holiday. However, you are right that he also was doing a new thing and established a new covenant. But beyond that I may disagree.

GE:
At this hour in His life, Jesus was less 'Jewish' than at any time of his life. In fact, reading John 17 Jesus is seen the Intercessor for his Elect, first, last and only. Reading the passion-narratives, Jesus tells his disciples Now is the hour of evil men and of the powers of darkness. He sided with no human affiliation when He Institutionalised His Supper the Holy Communion of Christian allegiance. Here is the point in the life's history of Jesus Christ blood relation or nationalistic interests were zero.

Here prophecy was being brought to an end; here Jewish Covenantal commiment raged itself out in the fury of the Jews and the judgments of a just God. Christ Triumphed and introduced the Lord's Supper to commemorate Triumph through Victory. No 'Jewish holy day' would do; no holy meal of it; He had to invent and create his own.

And I never denied Jesus here 'observed' a Holy Day of God's institution: He observed, the Passover of Exodus, Nisan 14, in both aspects of Sacrifice AND Meal! No 'Jewish' ceremony or even OT ceremony existed that could fulfil the requirements of God's Prophetic, Eschatological Provision through Christ Himself. Jesus WAS the Passover Lamb, both in being Sacrifice Himself and Feast of Eating Himself.
Jesus did not observe the Jewish Passover still observed by the Jews for nothing but a judgment over themselves on Nisan 15, after, the True Passover Lamb of God had been sacrificed and Himself by the sacrifice of Himself had eaten the plate prepared for Him and had drunk the cup prepared for Him by God, that Nisan 14.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

GE:
At this hour in His life, Jesus was less 'Jewish' than at any time of his life. In fact, reading John 17 Jesus is seen the Intercessor for his Elect, first, last and only. Reading the passion-narratives, Jesus tells his disciples Now is the hour of evil men and of the powers of darkness. He sided with no human affiliation when He Institutionalised His Supper the Holy Communion of Christian allegiance. Here is the point in the life's history of Jesus Christ blood relation or nationalistic interests were zero.

Here prophecy was being brought to an end; here Jewish Covenantal commiment raged itself out in the fury of the Jews and the judgments of a just God. Christ Triumphed and introduced the Lord's Supper to commemorate Triumph through Victory. No 'Jewish holy day' would do; no holy meal of it; He had to invent and create his own.

And I never denied Jesus here 'observed' a Holy Day of God's institution: He observed, the Passover of Exodus, Nisan 14, in both aspects of Sacrifice AND Meal! No 'Jewish' ceremony or even OT ceremony existed that could fulfil the requirements of God's Prophetic, Eschatological Provision through Christ Himself. Jesus WAS the Passover Lamb, both in being Sacrifice Himself and Feast of Eating Himself.
Jesus did not observe the Jewish Passover still observed by the Jews for nothing but a judgment over themselves on Nisan 15, after, the True Passover Lamb of God had been sacrificed and Himself by the sacrifice of Himself had eaten the plate prepared for Him and had drunk the cup prepared for Him by God, that Nisan 14.

I'm not sure what you're trying to point out. Are you saying that it was Good Thursday in stead of Good Friday? Christ established a New Covenant that doesn't mean that the Passover meal or celebration was not a forshadowing of Christ preparing the Jews for what the Messiah was to do. In fact, everything in the OT is setting the Stage for Ha mashiach. Oy veh! and Yeshua ben Yosef ben David is Ha Mashiach. Toda rabba. Also it seems that you are making a better point for transubstantiation rather than not. Strange.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

For my last word on this thread, I must ask Ed Sutton and our Lord Jesus, forgiveness for my sinful heart and mind and body, that I accused him falsely, and suspected him of a wrong which he did not do, but which my two eyes and mind full of old and evil tendencies, saw for real. Ja, were it not for the love and forgiveness of our Lord God and my fellow believers in Him, I would have been hellbound. But now I am being saved instead. I cannot understand it. I can only say, thank you!