the Passover Jesus celebrated with his disciples

[EdSutton]

For my last word on this thread, I must ask Ed Sutton and our Lord Jesus, forgiveness for my sinful heart and mind and body, that I accused him falsely, and suspected him of a wrong which he did not do, but which my two eyes and mind full of old and evil tendencies, saw for real. Ja, were it not for the love and forgiveness of our Lord God and my fellow believers in Him, I would have been hellbound. But now I am being saved instead. I cannot understand it. I can only say, thank you!

You certainly have any 'forgiveness' from me that you might seek.

However, I am far more troubled by this post than by some where we may disagree. While it is entirely true that "We are being saved" "from the power of sin," I add [and also, in the future, "we will/shall be saved" "from the presence of sin" (Rom. 5:9,10] (I Cor. 1:18; 15:2; II Cor. 2:15), those parts have nothing to do with our being saved "from the penalty of sin," which is by believe/faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, based on his finished work, when He was crucified on Mt. Moriah, and on that, alone. (Jn. 3:16, Ac. 16:31; Eph. 2:8-10, etc.)

One who has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ is saved and secure, due to His sacrifice and faithfulness, not ours. And this we can and should know. (Heb. 6-10; I Jn. 5:10-13) My salvation is not in doubt; my 'service' or discipleship, and my faithfullness may well be, however. I pray that you can and will know the assurance that is available, assuming you have already believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, and in His work. In Him alone, there is rest. (Heb. 4:1-11)

Ed

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Thank you for your encouraging reply, Ed Sutton!

I may confirm I in every word of your reply agree with you completely. I believe OSAS; but better still, I believe the sovereign Grace of God through Jesus Christ.
For nothing am I more thankful, than for forgiveness, which I like you believe is all by Christ and in Christ, by the Sacrifice of Himself, yea, more so, by the offering of His Life in resurrection from the dead a sweet savour unto life "before the LORD" - the Gospel Message of "First Sheaf Wave Offering". This I live of, this I live for, and this I live by.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I made too many and too serious mistakes in my posts of this thread, I need to continue with a few more notes.
Ed Sutton:
“14 Nisan .... is "Passover" .... referred to as a 'feast day' in Leviticus ....”.

GE:
I do not find this the case.
Nisan 14 is "Passover" referred to once as a 'feast day' in Exodus (not in Leviticus), yes! Why? Because in Ex12:18 (23:15, 34:18 refer to the dating in 12:17) the passover sacrifice was also eaten on Nisan 14 – unlike anywhere else in the OT or Bible for that matter. Until (I believe), the Last Nisan 14 Passover in which Christ “offered Himself Sacrifice” both slaughtered and eaten on Nisan 14— (an insight new to me thanks to our discussions!) The Last Passover had to be finished before the day of Nisan 14 would end.
(The suffering and death of Christ meant the end of all Old Testament sacrifices and feasts. Feasting Christ “with regard to Sabbath’s’ Feast”, the NT believer feasts all OT institutions, ceremonies, sacrifices and feasts.)
Nisan 14 in any other direct or indirect reference, is never outside Exodus named a ‘feast’ again, because the passover sacrifice was always eaten on Nisan 15. (E.g., cf. Lv23:5 with Lv23:6; et al.) Nisan 15, therefore, is found named, the Feast of the Passover, everywhere except in Exodus.
In fact, Nisan 15 is not mentioned in Exodus.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Sutton:
“14 Nisan .... is not said specifically to be a Sabbath nor an holy Convocation, unlike the Feast day of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15, which is a Sabbath, and an holy convocation, according to Leviticus 23.”

GE:
I am glad you said “a (s)abbath”, and not ‘the Sabbath’, and I’m sure you know why: because the Feast Day of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15, always was ‘a sabbath’ (Lv23:11b, 15a, 16a), but not necessarily the Seventh Day Sabbath. Passover-sabbath could coincide with the Seventh Day Sabbath because it floated through the week.
Nisan 15 Passover-Feast-sabbath (in the year the Lord was crucified), fell on Friday. The beginning-part of Nisan 15 was ‘our’ Thursday night. Had Jesus had either the Passover Meal or Lord's Supper on Thursday night, He should on the next day – Friday – still have been alive and crucified— which I and you, deny for irrefutable reasons He was on Friday still.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES, “[Sigh!] Yes, I did quote Mk. 14:1.

GE:
I replied: "After two days was the Feast Day (Sabbath) of the Passover that of Unleavened Bread Feast ..." it was, Nisan 13.
Now Mark 14:12 also exists, you know as well as I do, which refers to the day directly after this one of verse 1, upon which the Last Supper was eaten, Nisan 14, and one day before the Passover Feast Sabbath of Unleavened bread eaten. (I think we still agree.)
Therefore you have two indications to the sequence of the days involved before the Feast Sabbath Nisan 15, on which — in its fore-part and evening of night — the Passover’s, Meal, would have been eaten as the climax of the Feast of the Passover's eight days of duration. Only the Jews ate the passover-meal that Nisan 15. They had not had their part in the Passover Meal of Yahweh, in Christ!
The Meal Jesus and His disciples gathered for, happened the night beginning Nisan 14 (cf. Mk14:12/17, Mt26:17/20, Lk22:7/14, Jn13:1), and before the Great Sacrifice of that Passover of Yahweh would be slaughtered by crucifixion.
The old passover meal consisted of the meat of the sacrifice of Nisan 14, so the meal (of the sacrifice) could not be eaten before the day it would be sacrificed – it naturally had to be eaten the day after, Nisan 15, “in the evening before midnight” of Nisan 15. Nisan 15 therefore was “Feast”, or ‘Passover-Feast’, or just ‘the passover’, or, “Feast of Unleavened Bread (eaten)” because the lamb and the unleavened bread were eaten together on that day, in the “night to be solemnly observed”— in Exodus dated Nisan 14; in the rest of the Law, dated Nisan 15.
The Lord’s Supper consisted of two things, bread, and wine – as the Christian Church still observes it today! So how could the Lord’s Supper be “the passover” in the sense of the passover’s meal? It could not.
The Lord’s, Supper – according to Mk14:1 and 12 – happened one day before passover’s day on which the sacrificed lamb was to be eaten, Nisan 15. Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper the day before Nisan 15; before the ‘Feast-day’; before the passover’s, “sabbath day”— in that year of our Lord’s death on Nisan 14 (Thursday), the night before the night of Nisan 15’s beginning on which the Jews ate their passover meal. The Lord’s Supper occurred the Fifth Day of the week, on ‘Wednesday night’, the beginning of the Fifth Day ‘Thursday’, ‘Wednesday night’ after sunset.
So what do we quarrel about? How or where do we at all differ, if I understand you correctly, as you further explain your position,

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES: “I do not believe or teach that the Passover meal took place on "the evening of 'our' Thursday night,"
GE:
Then please, on which night was it? Only one possibility remains, and that is on ‘our’ Wednesday night. Well, but that’s what he’s said! Over fifty years have I been saying the same thing, and here we are at each other’s throat? Just because you say ‘Passover Meal’, and I say, not ‘Passover Meal’?
All I can think of where we else might differ, is here, “14 Nisan (or 14 Abib) is "Passover", and which is also referred to in the NT as "the Preparation ...."” Do you have Jn19:31 in mind? Because there, Nisan 14, the day on which Jesus was crucified, is called “The Preparation of the Passover” – not simply ‘The Preparation’ as you here name it. Because ‘The Preparation’ it is said in Mk15:42, is the day “which is the Fore-Sabbath”— Friday— Nisan 15 = “Feast of Passover” = “sabbath” of passover (in Mk15:42 beginning).
The (Jews’) and OT passover’s meal was eaten on Friday (evening before, after sunset before midnight, according to the sunset reckoning of the day). Is that what you believe was the Lord’s Supper?! That is how anyone must understand you if you insist the Lord’s Supper was the Passover’s Meal. But – as we both understand it – Jesus then would have been dead; so how would He have eaten the passover-meal?
Jesus must have ordered his disciples to “Prepare for the Passover” the Wednesday night after sunset during evening, before He the next day – for which He at the table was prepared –, on Thursday / “Preparation of the Passover Day” / Nisan 14, would “offer Himself Sacrifice” and thereby himself would also eat the Passover and drink its cup— Himself both Sacrifice and Meal on Nisan 14— like in Exodus once more! The Sinoptists called this “The Day they had to kill / always killed the passover, The (very) Day Leaven (was) Removed (Adzumos)”; or, John, calling it “The Preparation of the Passover”. Nisan 14 day of crucifixion / ‘slaughter’ was the immediate day before the ‘usual’ “Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath”— Nisan 15, and day on which the passover-meal was always eaten.

Here is something it is possible we also differ on: This Nisan 15 Friday, begins in Jn19:31 (and 38), Mk15:42, Mt27:57, and Lk23:50. “Because it was the preparation (beginning) .... and because that (prospective) day was a ‘great day-sabbath’, the Jews asked Pilate that the bodies might be removed”, Jn19:31 — “the sabbath”, namely, of Lv23:11,15.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES:
“.... the verses .... also say .... "In the evening He came with the twelve. (18) Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say unto you, one of you who eats with me shall betray me."
Did you notice what I have underlined, here?
GE:
I since my previous answer, have tried to improve on my own words and argumentation,
“Where is the guestroom where, I with my disciples, may eat, (it being) the Passover. 16 So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared for Passover. 17 In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat andate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.” (Mk. 14:1, 14-18 - NKJV)"
What would be the whole picture? Because Jesus told his disciples,
"He will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared” (--- already!) 'Ekei etoimasate hehmin': “There be you (the two disciples Jesus sent before, verse 13a) ready for us” (others who will meet you there).
16 “So His (two) disciples (“Peter and John”) went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them. And they prepared for the Passover all the same”, 'hehtoimadzoh', 'they prepared all the same' – just like all the others did (with Bedikat Chamets), for Passover— on the evening and beginning of Nisan 14.
Then:
17 “In the evening (Luke says after one hour) He came with the (rest of the) twelve."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES: “.... the verses .... also say .... "In the evening He came with the twelve. (18) Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say unto you, one of you who eats with me shall betray me."
Did you notice what I have underlined, here? (Before "18 Now as they sat and ate ...."

GE:
Make that, "18 Now as they sat and ate...." Not Jesus, but they. The literal: ‘Kai anakeimenohn autohn kai esthiontohn, ho Iehsous eipen....’ “And they-sitting down and they-eating, Jesus said, Verily I tell you....”; or, “Now at-sitting-down-of-them and at-of-them-eating, Jesus said, Verily I tell you....”. The Verbs in Plural are “of-them”-doing; the Verbs in Singular are of Jesus’ doing.
Quite the opposite than yours.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES: “....one of you who eats with me shall betray me”

GE:
Is it “eats”, or is it “eat”?
Get that, more correct:
".... Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray me – the one by me (met’ emou) eating.”
Anyway, where does it say, Jesus, ate or drank? Nowhere!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES:
“In another place, it mentions Jesus speaking of one who would dip his hand in the dish, along with the Lord Jesus.
I underlined "eat" and "ate" to show that it was indeed the Passover meal, and that they did, in fact, eat of it.
Frankly, I simply do not think the Lord was 'dipping his hand' into the dish, and not eating this, and merely "playing in the food".
GE:
Your last remark first.
As I have said, this (Mt26:23) is an idiomatic expression for or of familiarity; it has no literal meaning. You have read the many commentaries. Judas took advantage of the trust between him and the Lord, is what Jesus wanted to say and quite straight forward and frankly said with using this expression.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES:
“In another place, it mentions Jesus speaking of one who would dip his hand in the dish, along with the Lord Jesus.”
GE:
John 13:17, Jesus gave to Judas to show what He insinuated; it doesn’t even mention this expression.
Mk14:20, read verse 19 first, then, “And He answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve that dippeth with me in the dish. .... Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!”
Now there is no doubt bread was eaten only once during the Lord’s Supper of the Last Meal. (One may plainly call it the last passover meal, not meaning it was the Passover’s Meal of sacrifice, because it was the meal of the last passover Feast season that Jesus would eat.) Now there is no doubt bread was eaten only once during the Lord’s Supper of the Last Meal, just like the cup was drunk only once in Holy Communion. I think it is to the dishonour of the Lord’s Supper if the cup was used again. (Some people insist the cup went round as many as four times --- and then I have noticed they deny the Passover’s Seder used unfermented wine!)
However, if you are right in assuming both verses 18 and 20 should be taken literally as if the disciples and Jesus actually ate, then food was taken twice— which I also think would dishonour the Lord’s Supper. Besides looking like the gluttony Paul wrote against, it implies Christ’s dying once was not enough; as if He had to die again.
But Luke says, “the hand of him who betrayeth me is with me on the table”. Selfsame thing; literalness is out of the question.
Then Luke also says Jesus “took the bread, broke it, and gave unto them. .... (Mt) And He took the cup .... and gave thanks .... and gave to them .... But I say unto you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine until ....”.
The idea, “henceforth / no more” in “I say unto you, I will not henceforth drink of this fruit of the vine”, does not imply Jesus this time did drink, but won’t again drink until .... It actually is an emphatic assurance He would this time not at all eat (anything)!
Idiomatically, figuratively and literally, Jesus said,
“I with desire (acutely / greatly) desired this passover to eat with you before my suffering, but I tell you that no-more-by-any-means (‘ouketi ou meh’, definitely not) do I eat it” (‘fagoh auto’)— literally. There’s no, ‘Will I not eat’, Future; but, actually, and presently at table, “Do I not eat, until it (‘it’, ‘This Passover’) is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God”. “.... it is fulfilled” (plehrohthehi)— Aorist Subjunctive: “.... until I would have had fulfilled it (auto)”.
This has been telling us , when, Jesus would actually eat and drink the Passover of Yahweh.
And this has also been the Lord telling us, where, He actually – retrospectively speaking – did eat or had had eaten and had had drunk, the Passover of Yahwhe. Where then? “.... fulfilled in the Kingdom of God”.
Is that too difficult to understand, that the ‘Kingdom of God’ Jesus here spoke of, would be, and in fact had been, the very Glory of God beginning and being fulfilled in Christ in His suffering, death and resurrection from the dead? Not if the Word is heard from texts like, “Truly the Son of Man goeth (forth into His Glory).” “Son of Man” is Title of Honour and Glory. “Goeth forth” is triumphal procession of Victor Lord and King of the Kingdom of God. See how the kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship (verse 23-25). “But ye shall not be so (nor shall the Kingdom of God): But He, that is Greatest among you .... He, that is Chief, (is) as He that doth serve. .... I AM – among you – (is) as He, that serveth!” Yahweh, serving Lord.
Christ in entering into His Suffering, is as He that Serveth that enters in into His Kingdom of Glory. Who ate the Lord’s Supper, he who sitteth at meat (the disciples who ate), or He that serveth”: Christ who in His Kingdom, the Kingdom of God: “I AM among you as He that serveth”-KING?
Ed Sutton, I could not say these thing before I found out about why Exodus dates both Passover’s Sacrifice and Passover’s Meal on Nisan 14! And why ever since the first passover, the meal of the passover, would always be observed on Nisan 15, as reached it out towards the Passover Lamb of God and us before. “Until He in having come into His Kingdom would have observed Passover, Sacrifice and, Meal, on Nisan 14.
Christentum dass nicht ganz und gar Eschatologie ist, hat mit Christus Jesus ganz und gar und Restlos, nichts zu tun! (Karl Barth)

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It will take me a while to get through your theological gymnastics here.

 

[EdSutton]

It will take me a while to get through your theological gymnastics here.

Noticed that, hunh?

Ed