The people in hell Christ died for

Would anybody like to comment on ' Abrahams bosom ' Luke 16

David

 

Hi Icthus;
The Old Testament Saints were not born again, nor did they have the means to be. If they did have then Christ would not have been needed. They lived under a different covenant. They were held captive in Abraham's bossom. They were held there by there death. A place called Sheol. Hell to the Jews was also the grave. Believers as far as I know were not in torment but we must be born again to enter heaven.
May Christ Shine His Light On us All;
Mike

 

Parable.

All the saints were not sitting in Abraham's lap.

Abraham was not really in charge of the saints.

The wicked dead do not really try to negotiate favor with Abraham as if HE was in charge of granting favors.

No mention of it in OT or NT outside of this parable --

HOWEVER one thing that IS impressive is that the parable was designed for Jews who would be HAPPY to think of Abraham as being in charge of all the dead and as being the one to "make decisions" about who gets what and whether someone could be raised from the dead to evangelize!

It was perfectly tailored to appeal to a hostile group!

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is where we part ways fellas.

In Heb 11 we see "born again saints".

In Romans 3 we see "total depravity of all mankind".

The only way to get from someone stuck in the Romans 3 problem (sin problem) is the ONE Gospel solution - the New Covenant the New Birth.

This is why Christ smacked Nicodemus PRE-CROSS for pretending not to understand this basic PRE-CROSS salvation fact.

ONE Sin problem in all of time.
ONE Gospel solution in all of time.

And of course Moses and Elijah (Matt 17) are together Pre-Cross.

Enoch and Elijah are both taken to heaven (fully forgiven) PRe-Cross.

Christ declared many people fully- forgiven PRE-Cross.

It was a born-again fully-forgiven pre-cross Gospel that had to address the SAME sin problem that we have today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Gal. 3:6-9 & Hebrews 11:13; also Peter declares that prophets of old spoke as they were moved by the Spirit of Christ that was in them 1 Pet. 1.11.

Check out Genesis 15:6 compared with Romans 4


Certainly they were born again.

debtor to Free Grace,
Bro. Dallas

 

I seem to be in agreement with Mike most of the time and now it appears I am also in agreement with Bro. Dallas a lot of the time (I am just not sure if I am supposed to be doing that.)

I only say this because I got a little unnerved by almost agreeing with Pastor Larry on something on this board. (I usually reserve my agreements with Pastor Larry to certain topics on the "other Denominations" section of this Web site).

 

Bro Dallas;
None of the scriptures you suggested support oldtestament saints being born again. I didn't say they were lost they just were not born again. When they died they went to paradise but they didn't go to heaven. This paradise was in a seperate part of Hell. David's sould went there
"Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;"
David was speaking of Him self. He knew His Soul was going to hell. And He also knew that his soul would not stay there.
"Psa 16:11 Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore."
The Son of God descended into hell and preached the gospel to them.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He had to preach the gospel to them because no one comes to the Father except through Christ. They were not born again but set a side in captivity.
If as you claim Old testament saints were born again then why did Christ have to die for my sins. The sins of man could never be coverd by the blood of animals. Only the blood of Christ has that power and it hadn't been spilt yet.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Mike,

You have to go back to the basic idea of "what is salvation" and "What is the Gospel".

If it is true that the New Birth is not part of the Gospel, and if it is true that without the New Birth and without forgiveness of sins - mankind can become the "Giants of faith" - saints that we see in Heb 11 -- who are fully "pleasing to God" as Heb 11 states, then the Gospel is a "tiny thing indeed".

On the other hand if those Gospel changes ARE central to the "Good News" -- then what you claim to have in the OT (where you say they are saved but without the New Birth, without forgiveness etc) is "another gospel". Which means you now have "two gospels" one for the OT age and another for the NT.

And in fact your description of an OT means of salvation (that has no forgiveness and no new creation) is entirely foreign to the Gospel we have today.

And oddly enough the Gospel we have today - involves the PRE-CROSS New Birth teaching we see in John 3 that is somehow "not applicable to people before the cross" in the model you are using.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So, RobRyan, Exactly what is salvation?

Salvation from what? To what?

As for the OLD Testament, In every instance God counted one's FAITH as righteousness. Faith was demonstrated by the works of one possessing it.

In both the OT and the NT, Salvation is the RESULT of FAITH found in the one is saved!

 

Could you please provide the Scriprure that support this. I know many people believe this but I know of no Scripture that clearly teach this.

I am reminded of Enoch, Elijah, and Moses, these latter two appeared with Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration.

 

Salvation means freedom from slavery to Satan (as we see in Eph 2:1-5). It is the New Covenant promise of the Law of God written in the heart with sins forgiven. (Heb 8) And it is peace with God through justification (Romans 5).

The ONE Gospel solves the ONE sin problem of mankind.

From the fall of Adam there has only been one problem for mankind - sin that separates from God, causes total depravity and dooms us to hell.

The new creation, Justification, forgiveness and reconciliation are all promised in the ONE Gospel.

ONE Gospel of salvation for all of time.

Indeed the OLD testament saints were saved in the same way as NT saints - through the ONE Gospel.

By Grace through faith and not of works lest anyone (NT or OT) should boast.

In Christ,

Bob

 

How do you reconcile the above statement with the following Scripture?

Ecclesiastes 12:1-7
1. Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2. While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3. In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4. And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5. Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6. Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

Gees OldRegular,
Are You using Ecclesiastes to override Revelation?

 

Revelation does not say that the OT saints were lost.

Heb 11 says that in fact they are fully accepted by God including those who did not ever die (Enoch given as an example of those).

Elijah also serves to "prove that point".

There is no conflict in God's Word between Eccl 12 and Revelation.

So we can "trust God's Word".

In Christ,

Bob