The place for women in the church, continued...

[thebuzzard]

In marriage, God ordained that wives should be submissive to the husband, the husband being the head. He also ordained that husbands should love their wives a) as Christ loves the church and b) as their own selves. If husbands would follow that command, you wouldn't see adultery, abuse, neglect, etc. You also shouldn't see the husband sitting with his feet propped up while the wife does all the work around the house.

I think this is the key to this issue. I've seen, over the tears, quite a number of families where the husband was very domineering of the wife and used the Scriptures to give him that right. These men never (in my experience) treated there wives with the love described in Ephesians 5:25.

My wife is my partner in life and ministry. We serve together. My desire is for her well being at whatever cost to me. She reciprocates by trusting my leadership.

 

[John Toppass]

I think this is the key to this issue. I've seen, over the tears, quite a number of families where the husband was very domineering of the wife and used the Scriptures to give him that right. These men never (in my experience) treated there wives with the love described in Ephesians 5:25.

My wife is my partner in life and ministry. We serve together. My desire is for her well being at whatever cost to me. She reciprocates by trusting my leadership.

Well stated.

 

[Alive in Christ]

RAdam, you said...

"Exactly. The husband does not submit to the wife. He is to love his wife in the same manner that Christ loves the church. He is to be the head of the wife.

The husband does not submit to the wife.

Ohhhhh. I get it.


So....

Option "A"

A husband is bone headed and and is convinced that they are going the correct way to get to the beach for vacation, and the wife shows him on the map that they are going further away from the beach. The husband should tell her to "shut up and let me drive".

Or...

Option "B"

He should submit to his wife.

Which is it? Option A or Option B?

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Alive in Christ

You said.......

“A husband is bone headed and and is convinced that they are going the correct way to get to the beach for vacation, and the wife shows him on the map that they are going further away from the beach. The husband should tell her to "shut up and let me drive".”

I am sure that this happens, but what the Bible teaches is that it is the husband's RESPONSIBILITY to lead the family and it is the wife’s RESPONSIBILITY to obey her husband.

In heaven, this husband will have to give an account, for the disrespectful way he spoke to his wife and the wife will give an account, for how submissive she was to her husband.
--------------------------------------------------
Here on earth, a wife may get a lot of satisfaction(or feel justified), when she takes the headship and makes it to the beach.

But in heaven, she is going to regret disobeying God’s instructions.

 

[RAdam]

RAdam, you said...





Ohhhhh. I get it.


So....

Option "A"

A husband is bone headed and and is convinced that they are going the correct way to get to the beach for vacation, and the wife shows him on the map that they are going further away from the beach. The husband should tell her to "shut up and let me drive".

Or...

Option "B"

He should submit to his wife.

Which is it? Option A or Option B?

I ask again: does Christ submit Himself to the church? You've yet to answer this question. The husband has been commanded to love his wife as Christ loves the church. The wife is to submit herself to her husband because he is the head of her as Christ is the head of the church. You say the passage speaks of mutual submission. I ask again, does Christ submit Himself to the church? Your only response so far is a ridiculous trip to the beach scenario.

 

[jaigner]

The place for women in the Church is, quite simply, anywhere God places them. In the pulpit, teaching a class, playing the organ, caring for children. The pauline texts that say otherwise were written to a specific people at a specific time, when women were basically property and, of course, uneducated. There are many times in the Bible where an injustice is temporarily allowed for the greater good. That's part of divine accommodation.

The book, Slaves, Women and Homosexuals is a good place to start. Glibert Bilezikian (sp?) also wrote a helpful text called Beyond Sex Roles.

 

[annsni]

The place for women in the Church is, quite simply, anywhere God places them. In the pulpit, teaching a class, playing the organ, caring for children. The pauline texts that say otherwise were written to a specific people at a specific time, when women were basically property and, of course, uneducated. There are many times in the Bible where an injustice is temporarily allowed for the greater good. That's part of divine accommodation.

The book, Slaves, Women and Homosexuals is a good place to start. Glibert Bilezikian (sp?) also wrote a helpful text called Beyond Sex Roles.

Paul does not point to culture or anything like that for his teaching but God and creation. That kind of blasts the "culture" idea out of the water.

 

[Jim1999]

To blast culture is to blast all principles of hermeneutics; biblical interpretation.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[RAdam]

To blast culture is to blast all principles of hermeneutics; biblical interpretation.

Cheers,

Jim

And to ignore that Paul referenced other issues in the church when he was addressing them yet failed to reference some gender issue when addressing the instructions for women in the church is to ignore the basic principles of bible hermeneutics. Not to mention that you guys ignore the fact that Paul gave the same instructions to Timothy with no reference to a particular place the problem occured.

 

[Alive in Christ]

RAdam...

You say the passage speaks of mutual submission."

No, I have said that the passage just above it speaks of mutual submission...

Ephesians 5, 15-21...

15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise,

16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,

19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,

20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,

21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.[a]

This is a scriptural admonition directed to all of Gods people.

Women, men, leaders, those who are not leaders, etc etc.

ALL of Gods people are expected to be willing to submit to others when it is clearly the right thing to do.



Now, when are you going to answer my question to you?

Which is correct?

Option A or option B?

 

[RAdam]

Your question is not even pertinent to the discussion. It has nothing to do with submission.

Those texts you mentioned are not speaking of marriage. The other texts are and Paul plainly commands the wife to submit to her head, the husband.

 

[Peggy]

A wife is not required to submit to her husband if it will bring harm upon herself or their children.

In that case, the husband clearly not in God's will by loving his wife as Christ loves the church.

 

[annsni]

A wife is not required to submit to her husband if it will bring harm upon herself or their children.

Can you show me this in Scripture?

In that case, the husband clearly not in God's will by loving his wife as Christ loves the church.

I agree but does that mean that women can now disregard the directives towards them?

 

[Alive in Christ]

(((Directives)))??

 

[jaigner]

Paul does not point to culture or anything like that for his teaching but God and creation. That kind of blasts the "culture" idea out of the water.

Paul doesn't spend a lot of time explaining hermeneutics. Neither does most of the Bible. That is the difficult and important work of exegesis and interpretation.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsni...

Originally Posted by Peggy
A wife is not required to submit to her husband if it will bring harm upon herself or their children.

And you said...

Can you show me this in scripture?

WHAT???

So, if your husband gave you a "directive" to go and get the kids and bring them to him so he could chop their arms off, you would do it?

Yes, that a very extreme hypothetical, but its only to make a point.

You actually need a SCRIPTURE to prove that you that you are not obligated to submit to your husband if it will bring harm to your CHILDREN???

YIKES!

 

[thebuzzard]

Seems we could solve all this with simple obedience to the Word

Once we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, we'd be in so much better shape if we would conform to the guidelines in Colossians 3 whether we be men, women, husbands, wives or children.

Note verse 25 reminding us of the Judgement Seat of Christ.

12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.
20 Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.
21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.
22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.
23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for[a] you serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.

 

[annsni]

Annsni...




And you said...



WHAT???

So, if your husband gave you a "directive" to go and get the kids and bring them to him so he could chop their arms off, you would do it?

Yes, that a very extreme hypothetical, but its only to make a point.

You actually need a SCRIPTURE to prove that you that you are not obligated to submit to your husband if it will bring harm to your CHILDREN???

YIKES!

See, Peggy said "A wife is not required to submit to her husband if it will bring harm upon herself or their children."

I just asked for where the "not required" reference is in Scripture. I'm not saying that we SHOULD submit in that situation but can we say that a wife is not required in Scripture?

 

[Jerome]

Do we all agree that it is illegitimate to use these Scriptures to attempt to shut up female saints during a church business meeting (which is the scenario described by the person who originally raised this topic)?

 

[abcgrad94]

Do we all agree that it is illegitimate to use these Scriptures to attempt to shut up female saints during a church business meeting (which is the scenario described by the person who originally raised this topic)?

I do! A business meeting is NOT the same as a worship service. I'm not sure where people got the idea that women are not to have any say in a church business meeting. In terms of time, money, and effort, we contribute just as much as the men and should have equal say.