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The plot to secede from the Union!

Q

Quantrill

Active Member
SGO said:
Thank you for your response.

For me it is becoming more important to know the history of of an idea which may lead to action in the present.


Conclusion: Only if you're willing to pay that price, should you move in that direction. And of course the times dictate whether or not it is worth paying.

Would you mind showing some scripture that says it is ok to lay down your life (pay the price) for a political idea rather than for Christ?

Or do you equate the two?

Are not we already in a spiritual war?

Many, like me, would rather spend time on a "safe" forum than be willing to witness for the gospel in a hostile culture.
Click to expand...

Where do you get the idea that 'political ideas' are not part of the spiritual war?

How about the atheistic philosophies? Are they not part of the spiritual war? Of course they are.

We can spend our time on a 'safe forum' now because Christians and others died to establish America. That is an America based upon Christianity and the Bible. The less Christian it becomes, the more hostile it will become toward your participation on a forum.

So, you see. It's not a question of Christ or politics. One can be serving Christ in defending his countries political ideas which are rooted in Christ.

Quantrill
 
S

SGO

Well-Known Member
Atheism is a belief system.
It is part of the war.
Actions come out of belief systems, right?
Political stances come out of belief systems too, I would venture.

But it is a jump to say one's politics always reflect Christ. Or to defend a political stance is the same as defending Christ.
Or, pardon me for saying this, as I love my country,
America is God because we have some freedoms here.
We have, or at least until recently, have had wonderful freedom here and that is from God,
BUT
and where the Spirit of the Lord is,
THERE is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17b

Why did Christ and Paul not emphasize political advocacy as a way to achieve things for the kingdom of God?
Why did Christ and Paul not physically fight the religious and political systems that were against Him?

It is fellowship in the Spirit, prayer, knowing, and applying the doctrines from the scripture.

Isn't advocating violence contrary to this?:

For we wrestle
not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities,
against powers,
against the rulers of darkness
of this world,
against spiritual wickedness
in high places.
Ephesians 6:12

not against flesh and blood

Please show scripture that says it is God's will to kill people for a political stance or even for the kingdom.
That is something countries or groups say to justify killing,
often for self protection but just as often used as a ruse to help certain groups get rich or get more power.

If a person kills to "protect" Christ what belief does that come from?

Oh, please not more of this sop.
Ok, then.
Make an argument from scripture that the above is just sop.
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Quantrill said:
Where do you get the idea that 'political ideas' are not part of the spiritual war?

How about the atheistic philosophies? Are they not part of the spiritual war? Of course they are.

We can spend our time on a 'safe forum' now because Christians and others died to establish America. That is an America based upon Christianity and the Bible. The less Christian it becomes, the more hostile it will become toward your participation on a forum.

So, you see. It's not a question of Christ or politics. One can be serving Christ in defending his countries political ideas which are rooted in Christ.

Quantrill
Click to expand...
Like what?
 
Q

Quantrill

Active Member
SGO said:
Atheism is a belief system.
It is part of the war.
Actions come out of belief systems, right?
Political stances come out of belief systems too, I would venture.

But it is a jump to say one's politics always reflect Christ. Or to defend a political stance is the same as defending Christ.
Or, pardon me for saying this, as I love my country,
America is God because we have some freedoms here.
We have, or at least until recently, have had wonderful freedom here and that is from God,
BUT
and where the Spirit of the Lord is,
THERE is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17b

Why did Christ and Paul not emphasize political advocacy as a way to achieve things for the kingdom of God?
Why did Christ and Paul not physically fight the religious and political systems that were against Him?

It is fellowship in the Spirit, prayer, knowing, and applying the doctrines from the scripture.

Isn't advocating violence contrary to this?:

For we wrestle
not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities,
against powers,
against the rulers of darkness
of this world,
against spiritual wickedness
in high places.
Ephesians 6:12

not against flesh and blood

Please show scripture that says it is God's will to kill people for a political stance or even for the kingdom.
That is something countries or groups say to justify killing,
often for self protection but just as often used as a ruse to help certain groups get rich or get more power.

If a person kills to "protect" Christ what belief does that come from?

Oh, please not more of this sop.
Ok, then.
Make an argument from scripture that the above is just sop.
Click to expand...

OK...you say the Scripture says where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. And it does say that. Does that apply to those martyrs being killed in the arena? Their liberty didn't extend to their physical existence. And it wouldn't until God provided the political government under which Christianity could grow.

When Scripture says 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood' it doesn't ignore the wrestling with flesh and blood. It recognizes that behind that flesh and blood is a spiritual force that we are really fighting with.

When Jesus was debating with the Pharisees, those sons of satan, He wasn't wrestling against flesh and blood. But those spiritual forces against Him were using flesh and blood against Him. Thus He told Peter, "get behind me satan". (Matt. 16:23)

Do not misrepresent what I am saying. No one needs to protect Christ. No one needs to bring in the Kingdom with the sword.

You must first ask yourself whether or not America was established by God. Was it? Was it based on Christianity and the Bible? Was it?

Quantrill
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Earth Wind and Fire said:
Florida is the place you go to die. What do you have, old people, humidity and Epcot.... big deal.
Click to expand...
Stand your ground laws, owner-friendly Gun laws, some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country, hand-made Cuban cigars since before Fidel Castro was even born, an extensive Greek community that makes the most amazing spanakopita, flaming cheese and souvlaki. We also have Bright Futures Scholarships that provides free college education to students with a 3.5 GPA, 1300 SAT and 100 hours of community service irrespective of income, race or any other criteria (and a lesser scholarship with lower requirements). We have a public school system that has offered children the opportunity to learn through online e-school, traditional brick and mortar classrooms and a hybrid virtual classroom that has been available for years before COVID. We also offer McKay Scholarships to pay for tuition to private schools for students with Special educational needs. We have a diversified economy and population that reflects the nation as a whole and is often a barometer for national issues.

That is without getting into our miles and miles of beaches and fishing.

That is what Florida has.
(PS. This cold weather gripping the country is threatening to drive local temperatures into the 60’s during the day and upper 40’s at night. ... so we have warm weather).
 
S

SGO

Well-Known Member
QUOTE Quantrill OK...you say the Scripture says where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. And it does say that. Does that apply to those martyrs being killed in the arena? Their liberty didn't extend to their physical existence. And it wouldn't until God provided the political government under which Christianity could grow.

When Scripture says 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood' it doesn't ignore the wrestling with flesh and blood. It recognizes that behind that flesh and blood is a spiritual force that we are really fighting with.

When Jesus was debating with the Pharisees, those sons of satan, He wasn't wrestling against flesh and blood. But those spiritual forces against Him were using flesh and blood against Him. Thus He told Peter, "get behind me satan". (Matt. 16:23)

Do not misrepresent what I am saying. No one needs to protect Christ. No one needs to bring in the Kingdom with the sword.

You must first ask yourself whether or not America was established by God. Was it? Was it based on Christianity and the Bible? Was it? QUOTE


"God provided the political government under which Christianity could grow."

Didn't the church mushroom in growth in Acts?
That government was against Christ.


"When Scripture says 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood' it doesn't ignore the wrestling with flesh and blood. It recognizes that behind that flesh and blood is a spiritual force that we are really fighting with. "

That's right. It's forces behind the flesh and blood, not the flesh and blood itself.



When Jesus was debating with the Pharisees, those sons of satan, He wasn't wrestling against flesh and blood. But those spiritual forces against Him were using flesh and blood against Him. ".

Yes but He did not call the legions of heaven to fight back physically did He?
He will later.


"Thus He told Peter, "get behind me satan" " Not "Thus" This quote is not from when He was at the trial. That was when he was telling the disciples He was about to go through suffering. Peter had wanted to fight it out.


I am sorry if I misrepresented what you said.


I see some here on the forum calling for physical resistance.
Believe me please, I am very upset about the current conditions political and otherwise.
We are being invaded by evil ideologies and practices.


"You must first ask yourself whether or not America was established by God. Was it? Was it based on Christianity and the Bible? Was it?"

You know what? I don't know if God established America as His own territory like He established Israel. Isn't that what you are saying?
Something like America is God's Country.
He makes all the nations.
Many of the Founding Fathers were Deists or nominal Christians or did I get that wrong?
Was Jefferson a born again Christian?
Have you looked at his New Testament?
He took out the miracles.
How about Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Paine?
Forthright men but not known for for being Christians. Paine certainly not.
There are plenty of books that talk of America's "Christian" origins but there seems to have been quite a bit of sinning going on at the time.
If it is true, don't a lot of the people that support that idea want to rid America of non-Christians and their influence?
That is something Christ will do in His coming Kingdom (sheep and goat nations, wheat and tares, etc.) where there will be no America.

Enough of the Colonists wanted political freedom and were willing to fight flesh and blood England to get it.
I do not see the case to repeat that struggle in the bible.
 
S

SGO

Well-Known Member
Quantrill said:
@SGO

Then go ahead and do nothing. But, quit...crying...then about how terrible the political situation is.

Quantrill
Click to expand...


You mean don't attack the current powers, to save my rotten hide, right?
Do you think there will be no blood shed of those for whom Christ died?

I will be crying for you if you take up arms in anger and go against the scripture.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
It should be noted that the founding fathers were wrong in rebelling against England. It is equally wrong should any Christian take up arms against God's established government in the United States.
 
Squire Robertsson

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
AustinC said:
It should be noted that the founding fathers were wrong in rebelling against England. It is equally wrong should any Christian take up arms against God's established government in the United States.
Click to expand...
I assume from this remark that you would have been a Royalist during the English Civil War and a Jacobite during the Glorious Revolution.
 
Q

Quantrill

Active Member
SGO said:
You mean don't attack the current powers, to save my rotten hide, right?
Do you think there will be no blood shed of those for whom Christ died?

I will be crying for you if you take up arms in anger and go against the scripture.
Click to expand...

Typical. You cry about politics yet bemoan the efforts of others to bring about a political situation. You enjoy the luxury of just speaking your mind, as if that was not bought at a high price by others. As if that must not be maintained to the same degree as others purchased it for.

Do you believe God established America as a Christian nation?

Quantrill
 
Q

Quantrill

Active Member
AustinC said:
It should be noted that the founding fathers were wrong in rebelling against England. It is equally wrong should any Christian take up arms against God's established government in the United States.
Click to expand...

What a contradictory statement. Rebellion against England was wrong. But God established the U.S. government?

Quantrill
 
S

SGO

Well-Known Member
Quantrill said:
Typical. You cry about politics yet bemoan the efforts of others to bring about a political situation. You enjoy the luxury of just speaking your mind, as if that was not bought at a high price by others. As if that must not be maintained to the same degree as others purchased it for.

Do you believe God established America as a Christian nation?

Quantrill
Click to expand...


Yes you are correct I enjoy what freedom I have through the sacrifice of others.
And yes to whatever degree it is maintained at the present time by other's sacrifice.
And I am trying to determine what the bible says if I think I have the right to kill someone who says you cannot have that freedom anymore.
I do not want to attack you, I want to know what the bible says about this.
Not what an ideology says about it.

God establishes all the nations and often through blood.

God put both of us here and every person He put where He chose.

Now please show me the scripture that says it is ok to kill people for political freedom.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Quantrill said:
What a contradictory statement. Rebellion against England was wrong. But God established the U.S. government?

Quantrill
Click to expand...
No contradiction.
The invasion by Babylon on Judah was wrong, but God ordained the rule of Babylon over Judah. Same principal.
God uses evil to accomplish His purposes.
God provides many paradoxes for us in scripture.
The fact is rebellion is wrong, yet God took such a rebellion and raised up a nation where Christians could live in relative peace.
 
Q

Quantrill

Active Member
SGO said:
Yes you are correct I enjoy what freedom I have through the sacrifice of others.
And yes to whatever degree it is maintained at the present time by other's sacrifice.
And I am trying to determine what the bible says if I think I have the right to kill someone who says you cannot have that freedom anymore.
I do not want to attack you, I want to know what the bible says about this.
Not what an ideology says about it.

God establishes all the nations and often through blood.

God put both of us here and every person He put where He chose.

Now please show me the scripture that says it is ok to kill people for political freedom.
Click to expand...

Please show me the Scripture where it says, exact wording, it is a sin to kill anyone for political freedom? Soldiers do it all the time. You want an 'exact' wording, and it isn't there. There is no 'exact' wording that the Trinity exists. There is no exact wording that the Rapture exists. There is no 'exact' wording in the Bible as to which books belong in the Bible. There is no 'exact' wording that God created America a Christian nation.

This is why I said you may as well go ahead and do nothing.

Understand, and don't misrepresent me in this. I do not encourage open rebellion. I believe I have said before here, that true political legitimacy is needed. For example State Governors. Truly elected officials. As a citizen of the State, I answer first to my State. If conflict arises between the Federal govt. and my State, I support my State. I am true to obeying the powers that be as the powers that be is my State.

If you don't have legitimate political representation, then you are just a riot and will be squashed.

Now, do you believe America was created by God a Christian nation?

Quantrill
 
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