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The Pope's Decree
- Thread starter DHK
- Start date
Eliyahu said:
And which authority would you care to cite for that particular interpretation of that Scripture?
Chemnitz said:
Like this:
Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? and like this: Luke 13: 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I am not usurping the authority of God, but want to kindly remind you of such possiblity, as Bible instructed this way:
2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Matt Black said:
Bible explains itself, and the whole chapter is about the salvation, good tree and bad tree, false prophet and true prophet, not the individual act or behavior.
Ye( all human beings) must be born again, Believe in Jesus, Seek ye first Kingdom of God and His righteousness ( Jesus Christ Himself), Love your neighbor ( True Neighbor is Jesus), Seed-sowers parable,
These are all the same about the New Life, Eternal Life, Being Born again, Acceptance of Jesus.
Eliyahu said:
Let me add you to the list of surprised people.
I am not one of those people who bases the proof of their salvation on a gas-ex moment. Those are ephemeral and fleeting things that can be greatly misleading. The basis of my faith isn't a case of heartburn, it is nothing less than the promise of God offered to me by means of Baptism where he marked me as his with his own name.
Poor Martin, he gets blamed for an awful lot. Let those who committed the atrocities own their own sin and stop trying to blame others.
I don't know where he is getting it either, last I checked the beam was a metaphor for sin.
Chemnitz said:
I don't see much difference about ML and therefore would focus on the others.
As for the Beams, you cannot remove it until you are born again, and therefore it means the removal of the Old man, Adam, the natural man.
If you didn't know it, learn from me! :wavey:
You may be claiming that John Wesley was a good Christian before May 24, 1738. Every believer has the moment when the Holy Spirit started to dwel in him or her. Otherwise, he or she must check about themselves, as 2 Cor 13:5 recommend.
You claim that you were born again at the time of Baptism. Then you have a big contradiction here.
1 minute before the Baptism, you were not born again, then you were unbeliever.
1 minute after the Baptism, you became a bornagain believer, you became a believer.
It means that the Baptizer baptized the unbeliever, which is unbiblical absolutely.
Baptism doesn't make Unbelievers become believers.
Even if you are baptized thousand times, your spiritual status won't be changed. Even daily diving into the water in the morning won't make you regenerate or be born again.
Baptism is done only unto the Believer who already received the Holy Spirit in their heart. The experience of receiving the Holy Spirit is the biggest event in every believers' life and therefore we can hear the testimony. I mentioned, Martin Luther, John Wesley, Pascal, Harry Ironside, George Muller, and many more, plus Paul in Damascus. You can see the big change of Zacchaeus, Nicodemus was changed after he met Jesus. I was one of the common church-goers and often advocated the existence of God and was baptised by sprinkling, it was 4 years later that I was born again when I read Gal 2:20.
Therefore Baptismal Regeneration is absolutely wrong!
There must be a spiritual change, and the Being Born Again is the starting point of the Spiritual Change. If you don't have such experience of accepting the Holy Spirit, you are unsaved, sadly. Even if you may be the father of Pope, unless you have received the Holy Spirit personally, you are unsaved and lost, you are unbeliever but just a fake christian, sorry to tell you the truth. Even if you yourself is the Pope or Superintendant of LUtheran ( I don't know ELCA), if you don't have received the Holy Spirit in person, you are not saved but is bounding for the hell, sorry again to tell the truth.
Chemnitz said:
True.
I do not defend what Luther wrote against the Jews, but I also know that he was a man of his time and we in our time see those writings through the lens of the Holocaust. For instance, I have a great deal of admiration for Theodore Roosevelt but I am appauled by his view that blacks and American Indians were inferior to whites. The truth is that there were many great church and political leaders of the past who did great things but who held views on matters of race that most would strongly disagree today. When it comes to Luther it must also be remembered that he was a man with human flaws, just like the rest of us. But there was a time when Luther also condemned the persecution of the Jews by the Roman church. Moreover, there are statements in the writings of the Church Fathers that many today would also consider anti-semetic.
Finally, as I'm sure you know, Lutherans look to Luther's theology and do not necessarily accept all his views having to do with politics or other such issues. Most Lutheran bodies that I know of, and specifically the LCMS of which I am a member, reject Luther's statements regarding the Jews.
Eliyahu said:
Bzzzt! Wrong, try again. That's your interpretation of the passage which of course you are entitled to as long as you realise that other Christians have different interpretations and yours isn't the absolute truth - you're a human being, fallible like the rest of us, and your interpretation is as likely to be wrong as mine or Chemnitz'.
Matt Black said:
People can compare the interpretations.
Try to interpret Mt 5:25, then we can compare each other.
Try to interpret Mount Sermon, I can present my own.
Truly Bornagain believers interpretations are different and unique!
Iron can sharpen Iron.
Do you mean all of the Sermon on the Mount (which will take a lot of time and bandwidth) or just Matt 5:25?
Matt Black said:
1) Mt 5:25
2) Mount Sermon in Mt 5:3-8
The reason why I mentioned these is because they are related to what I said about the Beams in your eyes.
Jesus has been always concerned about the Beams, not the dusts in the eyes, because he knows that Trees are the problem, not the fruits first.
If the trees are good, they will bear the fruits.
Trees are not bad because their fruits are bad, but the fruits are bad because the trees are bad. This is the main message of the entire Bible.
If you have got the beams in your eyes removed, then you can see thru the dusts(motes) in the eyes of others.
Beams and Motes are not the comparison between grievous sins and lighter sins, but the comparison between the Tree and Fruits.
Eventually the man of Adam must be replaced with man of Christ.
Did you think Jesus was talking about Wealth management or Real Estate business when He said this?
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Have you seen God yet?
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
I would see 'the meek' as those who would approach God with a humble and contrite heart, trusting not in their own righteousness but that which is conferred on them by Him through His manifold and great mercies; something that I don't see a lot of round here with some notable and praiseworthy exceptions.
'The pure in heart' flows from the above; those who so approach God may be sanctified to the extent that they see Him face to face.
I don't see what that has to do directly with the pieces of wood we were earlier discussing, except to say that to have an attitude of meekness means acknowledging the beam in your own eye.
'The pure in heart' flows from the above; those who so approach God may be sanctified to the extent that they see Him face to face.
I don't see what that has to do directly with the pieces of wood we were earlier discussing, except to say that to have an attitude of meekness means acknowledging the beam in your own eye.
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Matt Black said:
Mt 5:5
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
The contrite and broken hearted person can look at the Cross where he or she was crucified with Christ, such person will inherit the New Earth and New Heaven because they are saved.
Truly contrite heart means the status of the repentance unto the death, leaving all things on this world. A little regret cannot be enough, though it may help some moral behaviors. Only The broken hearted person can be born again.
If you have many things of this world in your mind, you cannot see God and cannot get the Holy Spirit in your heart. This is also a matter of salvation, being born again.
Motes and Beams are not the comparison between small mistakes and big mistakes. Jesus always talked about the acceptance of New Life, Death to the Old Adam.
You cannot see at all if your heart is not converted, which means that you have to be born again, be saved.
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye
Here we go further:
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
The person who gave up everything on this world, seeking only the Life of Jesus, has emptied his heart and then become poor in spirit, then such person can get the Kingdom of God.
Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness ( Mt 6:33).
Jesus Christ Himself is the Kingdom of God and His righteousness ( not the democratic country). Again this talks about the salvation and acceptance of Holy Spirit.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Have you ever mourned for the righteousness of God, regretting about your sin and sins? When we realize about our sins, we find them horrible and horrendous, then mourn deeply about our sins, later on God comforts us thru Holy Spirit informing that our sins were forgiven at the Cross.
We are indeed comforted, and saved. So, this is about the salvation as well.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
When we find ourselves needing mercy from God, we will get the mercy from Him, then we become merciful to others as well. So the mercifulness starts from ourselves, then extends to others because of the mercy from God, since God set Jesus as the Mercy Seat for our sins ( Rom 3:25)
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
If you are not born again, you don't have the salty savour in your heart, and therefore you must be born again by Holy Spirit.
MT 7
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye
All Gospel is talking about the Bad Tree, and the removal of Bad Tree will result in the improvement of the behaviors( fruits) later.
We commit sins because we are sinners, We are not sinners because we have sinned, but we were sinners from the birth and that's why we commit sins. Even though we make decisions again and again not to commit sins, we fail again and again, until we remove ourselves entirely, which was done at the Cross.
Mt 5
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
The word used here is "Be Ευνοων" which means Be friendly or make friends with, Reconcile with.
Who is accusing you? Who are the adversary against you? Your conscience, the Law must be accusing you all the time, pointing out the sinful nature of your acts and works, and you will find no way to excuse about them, and find you are destined to go to the hell after the judgment by God, you are lost, and you have no way to get out of there, and you are hopeless!
You are walking on such way which is your life on this world, and the adversary is clinging to you all the time, showing and pointing out the problems and hypocrisy of your acts, and eventually the adversary will deliver you to the Judge, and accuse you of all the charges, then the final verdict is apparent and you will be delivered to the Prison, the Eternal Prison. Therefore Jesus kindly admonish you to reconcile with the Adversary ! How ? Jesus Christ has become the Reconciliation for you because He paid all the price for your sin and sins. The Adversary is the Conscience and the Law in the Bible.
He is the propitiation for our sins ( 1 John 2:2)
The whole message of the Bible is about this removal of the Oldman Adam, and the acceptance of the Newman Jesus Christ.
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CarpentersApprentice
New Member
Is this the document that the OP was referring to?
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...ith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html
CA
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...ith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html
CA
This idolatrous counterfiet *christian* religious organisation based in Rome never ceases to amaze me.
I dont know what is greater, its supremely pompous audacity or it snake like ability to slither out of anything it needs to slither out of by saying, "Oh, what we REALLY meant was...THIS." (wink wink)
Mike
I dont know what is greater, its supremely pompous audacity or it snake like ability to slither out of anything it needs to slither out of by saying, "Oh, what we REALLY meant was...THIS." (wink wink)
Mike
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Eliyahu said:
#1. But the question was -- do you see this as a CHANGE from the Luther's CATHOLIC position that "all Jews and heretics should be exterminated" Lateran IV??
#2. Do you argue that Luther FIRST fully developed protestantism and THEN got saved?
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:
I didn't think to link his anti-semitism with Catholicism, but I would say that he didn't repudiate from his oldman's thought even after the salvation which may have been lurking in his mind even during his life in RCC. If you look at the comments by ML, you will find his fallacies continued after 1517.
No, he just learned the Gospel from Waldensians, influenced by Staupitz and Tauler, from other Born-again believers who were not RC actually, then was saved when he read Romans 1:17 which may be around 1515.
Moreover, the True Christianity didn't rely on his declaration because there existed many believers who never submitted to RCC even before Luther.
As for others, I would rather stick to the topic of this thread.
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