The Pot vs. The Kettle (Who is Black?!) Round 7,390

Oh, but man does have the "ability" to be perfect in the sense that he is not restrained from making the right choices. Jesus was perfect thus proving the possibility.

Man is "unable" because he is unwilling. He derives his nature from his ultimate human father who likewise chose his will over obedience to God. Man favors his will over God's will... every time until God gives him a new nature of life rather than death.

"You must be born again". Why did Jesus use the analogy of birth? Did anyone ever choose to be physically born? NO. It was their nature to be born... a nature that came as the direct result of the willful act of another.

Ichthus, Pastor Larry disagrees with you and gives biblical reasons for that disagreement. On what basis do you make these personal snipes?

From interacting with him here for 4 or 5 years now, I suspect that Pastor Larry is an exceptional pastor... as are some of the non-calvinists who disagree with him on this particular issue.

 

OSAS;

I'm sorry that you would question the honesty of God. Not sorry for God but for you. Gen3:19 doesn't say man can not be perfect.

I'm not impressed by your lack of understanding or your false accusations. They just show you up for who you really are.

Yet he was perfect;
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
I think you're just up set at the truth of scripture. I mean How dare God to write such a thing. I mean it is His Word you're so up set at isn't it?.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Twisting???

As long as the book of Romans is read without adding to, or taking from, it supports Calvin's position 101%!

 

What could God possibly expect from the unsaved?????? But the saved that He has chosen according to His will...

Luke 12:48 "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

After being brought into the body of Christ, one is expected to walk along the path Christ walked, but until then, man doesn't even care who God even is!

 

Hi OSAS;

I completely disagree with Calvinism like's Pauls writings because they are venerable to misinterpretation. For instance they use roman 3 10-18 to prove Total depravity. But when you look to see what Paul is quoting we find that he is quoting a fool. Although Paul wasn't describing the condition of man or his inability but what David said the fool thought about God and His Salvation. He first said there is no God. The newer versions may have this phrase in quotations but there were no quotations marks there in the Hebrew.
They avoid verses Like Romans 11:11 because it clearly states Salvation has come "to the Gentiles" as a whole. Hanging onto the false assumption that election is only for a few which scripture does not support.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike :

 

Ahhh.. The Ol' "ILL cut & Paste out of context" trick. Do you have a right click setting on your mouse that does that automatically?

So Adam was not "perfect" before the fall? Are you sure you want to claim that?

And Adam did not gain the knowledge of Good and Evil after chompin on that fruit Eve handed him? Are you sure you want to claim that?

A Southern Baptist/Calvinist/Republican/Conservative?

ROFL....
Sure he was....
Like Noah the Drunk.
Like Jacob the stealer of Blessings...
Like Moses the impatient and proud...
Or maybe David the Adulturer and Murderer...

Job was a man of High Moral Character, but not "sinless", Job had a human father! Job was at the peak of human moral achievement, but this was after many years of faith, loyalty, and service to God!

There is a difference between being morally upright, and being washed in the blood of the lamb my friend. Can't put the two in the same shopping cart.

 

OSAS;

Are you sure I said such a thing?

Hmmmmmmm.

Well I was hoping you would slide Christian in there somewhere but,>>>>>>>> nope I didn't see it. It strange you didn't list that. You should.

I didn't say He was sinnless. I just presented scripture and God's word says he was perfect. I didn't say that. Your argument isn't with me it's with God. I'd much rather believe God than you anyday.
May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
Mike

 

Larry that isn't so. Man does have the ability to be perfect with the help of Christ.</font>[/QUOTE]Christ does not help us be perfect. Christ becomes our perfection, or more precisely, we become his perfection. But that is exactly my point. Man does not have the ability to be perfect because we are all sinners.

That is not a reference to sinlessness. It is a reference to his moral uprightness, or completeness. He was a righteous man. He was not sinless. He was a sinner.

 

Yes

Why don't you come find out? You might be surprised. I would be glad to sit down with you one and one and open the Bible (whichever one you prefer) and talk. You can sit in on all of our services.

But in the meantime, I would encourage you to avoid the personal issues and attacks such as this. Let's raise the level of conversation and talk about issues, not people.

 

I was replying to what you wrote...

"Who" am I?

A Southern Baptist/Calvinist/Republican/Conservative

"What" I really am?

A born again member of the body of Christ.

You really need to clarify what answers you are seeking before you attempt at gypsy mind reading.

Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. I would hope you take the word of God over my word!

Lets go back to where this started...

Then.....

Pastor Larry references:

Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

Trying to explain:

And here you are tossing out Job 1:1, and I am sitting here wondering where Job fits into man's believing?????

Job was already a believer of the highest calibre. But just how many "Job's" are really out there. And "unbelievers" do not start out as Job before conversion.

All mankind automatically chooses to stick the middle finger up at God until the day comes that the Holy Spirit frees them from themselves, and allows them to believe.

In time. (A long time) man can get as close to "Job's Perfection" as humanly possible, but Job himself is a poor weapon to wield as "perfection" when dealing in a Post-Pentecost world.

 

OSAS;

Yes you were but I couldn't help noticing that you didn't mention Christian. You will notice I didn't say you weren't but was hoping you would It struck me as strange You claim all those things before you would choose Christian.
Then you say;

Why should I? Don't you know who and what you are? Not to mention your revel of my conversation which you don't understand is very unbecoming of a Christian. You started insulting me right from the start.
I happen to be a Born Again Christian as well

My point wasn't obvious to you because you didn't look at the whole picture of man believing. I and Larry have been discussing the same thing for a long time. He doesn't understand that I don't see his view of Salvation and regeneration.

They are both deliverance Larry doesn't see why I keep saying he believes men don't have a choice with his idea of regeneration. He thinks man has a choice after regeneration. He doesn't understand that the term regeneration means to be saved. If man is saved before he has faith then he is saved with out mans permission. Simply because God did not have mans permission. If mans will is positive for Christ after regeneration then man had no choice.
Regeneration is not enablement it is being born again. and being born again is saved.
You came into a conversation where you simply did not know all the past conversations.
Your first sentence addressed to me;

What kind of question is this?
Then you say;

Your sure seem bent on the idea God lies. I never quoted these verses you did and then called God a Liar I assume about what he said in them.
This conversation is over....................

 

I apologize.

From now on, I will allow you to continue on with all of the "Baiting", "Backhanded Compliments", "Word Manipulation" and other assorted "Trolling" tactics you use on a regular basis here at BB.

My mistake was expecting you to allow a ration to be placed on your plate of what you dish onto the plates of others.

 

Actually the reference was Matt 5:48. Bad memory on my part.

Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.