The potter and the clay.

[Greektim]

Nailed down, chained up, and padlocked, yes you have. You insist on describing Him as a Calvinist. That's a very tight box, and utterly fails to consider His full nature and character.

This argument is not all that helpful, because the same accusation can be leveled against you. "You insist on describing him as a non-Calvinist*. That's a very tight box, and utterly fails to consider his full sovereignty."


*[insert whatever label you prefer; so long as you don't use the pretentious 'Biblical' label which is very offensive to those who derive their view from Scripture as well]

 

[percho]

Nailed down, chained up, and padlocked, yes you have. You insist on describing Him as a Calvinist. That's a very tight box, and utterly fails to consider His full nature and character.Nope. Satan wanted him to, but Jesus warned him, strengthened him, and prayed for his perseverance.Given that Satan actually entered into Judas (Luke 22:3), Judas' sin is among the worst in the Bible, as he literally opened himself up to the nature and character of God's enemy. Very few did that. None lived.Absolutely.Logical fallacy. Straw man. Invalid.Nope. Never said. that. Logical fallacy. False restatement of the argument. Invalid.But not against the will of the one He would save.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

[/QUOTE]

Permit me comment and ask.

Before it was said, "Let there be light."
Before God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" and So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The Lamb was going to be slain. The Christ as of a lamb was going to shed his precious blood. This before the one and only man was created, the one man Adam whose wife was taken from him.

Why was this man created? What purpose of God was this man going to fulfill? Why did the God who created him plant a garden for him and then put him in that garden with the serpent? God only created the one and took from him the woman. What expectations did God have for this man? What did God command the man and the woman to do?

Why did God take from the man created in his image a part of him and make the woman from the man?

Some four thousand years later for what purpose would a woman be used?

Was woman essential to the plan of God?

Be fruitful and multiply. What? Vessels to choose? Or chosen vessels?
All, each and every one, whether good or bad, needing redemption?

 

[quantumfaith]

This argument is not all that helpful, because the same accusation can be leveled against you. "You insist on describing him as a non-Calvinist*. That's a very tight box, and utterly fails to consider his full sovereignty."


*[insert whatever label you prefer; so long as you don't use the pretentious 'Biblical' label which is very offensive to those who derive their view from Scripture as well]

This is what spikes my blood pressure more than anything, the tone, posture and attitude that "I have a keener insight, a loftier view, a more complete understanding of scripture and the mind of GAWD.......than my opponent.

*Note: this is meant to be a general statement rather than an stone cast your way.

 

[kyredneck]

....and you've carried your lil' feelins' around in your hands since you've been on this board, QF; it takes NOTHING to hurt them.

 

[quantumfaith]

....and you've carried your lil' feelins' around in you hands since you've been on this board, QF. It takes NOTHING to hurt them.

Yes, I do have "feelings" kyredneck....but I could still "take you". Little feelings or no.

 

[OldRegular]

Does the potter create the vessel according to his will or does the vessel get to choose what type of vessel he wants to be?

Seems like the answer is in the following Scripture:

Jeremiah 18:6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Romans 9:21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[percho]

Seems like the answer is in the following Scripture:

Jeremiah 18:6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Romans 9:21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Just about drives the nail in the coffin.

'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Seems like the answer is in the following Scripture:

Jeremiah 18:6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Romans 9:21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And to whom does God address this Scripture?

Hints: Jeremiah 18:6 ends "O house of Israel."
Romans 9:23, 24 references "us" and "Jews," not singular persons, and though he speaks of Pharaoh in v. 17, he nonetheless knows, as do we, that it was said of Pharaoh that he hardened his own heart as well.

Exodus 8, NASB
32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.

Exodus 9
34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.​

And Samuel's ultimate pronouncement on Israel was they had hardened their hearts "as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did (1 Samuel 6:6)?" Paul clearly preaches election as corporate and as belonging to those who believe in the next chapter of Romans.

Romans 10
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."​

Truthfully, Reformed theology can make no sense at all of this wonderful, universal call to salvation. "Whoever will" may come.

Paul’s burden, then, in Romans 9 is not to narrow the scope of God’s election but to broaden it. He wants to take in all who have faith in Christ Jesus regardless of their ethnicity. Election, then, is first and foremost a corporate notion: God has chosen for Himself a people, a corporate entity, and it is up to us by our response of faith, enabled entirely by the Holy Spirit's working on our heart, mind, soul and spirit, as to whether or not we choose to be members of that corporate group destined to salvation. He empowers, but we must ultimately decide.

 

[percho]

And to whom does God address this Scripture?

Hints: Jeremiah 18:6 ends "O house of Israel."
Romans 9:23, 24 references "us" and "Jews," not singular persons, and though he speaks of Pharaoh in v. 17, he nonetheless knows, as do we, that it was said of Pharaoh that he hardened his own heart as well.

Exodus 8, NASB
32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.

Exodus 9
34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.​

And Samuel's ultimate pronouncement on Israel was they had hardened their hearts "as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did (1 Samuel 6:6)?" Paul clearly preaches election as corporate and as belonging to those who believe in the next chapter of Romans.

Romans 10
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."​

Truthfully, Reformed theology can make no sense at all of this wonderful, universal call to salvation. "Whoever will" may come.

Paul’s burden, then, in Romans 9 is not to narrow the scope of God’s election but to broaden it. He wants to take in all who have faith in Christ Jesus regardless of their ethnicity. Election, then, is first and foremost a corporate notion: God has chosen for Himself a people, a corporate entity, and it is up to us by our response of faith, enabled entirely by the Holy Spirit's working on our heart, mind, soul and spirit, as to whether or not we choose to be members of that corporate group destined to salvation. He empowers, but we must ultimately decide.

Is there an oxymoron somewhere in there?

 

[OldRegular]

Paul clearly preaches election as corporate and as belonging to those who believe in the next chapter of Romans.

Romans 10
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."​

Truthfully, Reformed theology can make no sense at all of this wonderful, universal call to salvation. "Whoever will" may come.

But Jesus Christ also said: Matthew 7:21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Corporate election has been floated around a lot these days but I am not sure what those who use it mean. It is true that God chose the nation Israel for a specific purpose. I suppose that could be called "corporate election". That being said God saves people as individuals and He choses or elects people unto Salvation in Jesus Christ as individuals. And I like that "whoever will" which Jesus Christ defines so carefully!

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And then there is this wonderful invitation: Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. God is indeed Good!

 

[OldRegular]

Just about drives the nail in the coffin.

'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

I will give that a heartfelt Amen!

 

[convicted1]

But Jesus Christ also said: Matthew 7:21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Corporate election has been floated around a lot these days but I am not sure what those who use it mean. It is true that God chose the nation Israel for a specific purpose. I suppose that could be called "corporate election". That being said God saves people as individuals and He choses or elects people unto Salvation in Jesus Christ as individuals. And I like that "whoever will" which Jesus Christ defines so carefully!

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And then there is this wonderful invitation: Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. God is indeed Good!

:thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbs: