The practicality of theological views...

[Luke2427]

Then why did you appeal to the crucifixion as the worse of all evils as proof that God has determined ALL things when now you appear to being saying that he doesn't determine molestation in the same manner he does murder? Please expound.

Plus, molesting may not include motive. Someone can be forced at gun point to molest another, for instance. Either way, it leaves you in the same predicament.

Because it is the worst of all evils- why?

Murder is a word for kill that includes motive.

Molestation is a word for sex and other things that includes motive.

Kill- amoral word due to no motive included.

Murder- moral word due to motive included.

Etc....

God can kill but not murder.

God kills- often with the hands of murderers like the Assyrians.

On their part it is murder. On god's part it is not.

 

[Luke2427]

Because it is the worst of all evils- why?

Murder is a word for kill that includes motive.

Molestation is a word for sex and other things that includes motive.

Kill- amoral word due to no motive included.

Murder- moral word due to motive included.

Etc....

God can kill but not murder.

God kills- often with the hands of murderers like the Assyrians.

On their part it is murder. On god's part it is not.

What Arminians fail to recognize is that MORALITY can only be attributed to PERSONS.

Deeds cannot, by themselves, be good or evil.

In order for a DEED to be evil a PERSON had to do it and that PERSON had to do it with evil MOTIVES.

Arminians' failure to recognize this is what launches them on their theological voyage to exonerate God from evil. They see evil deeds happening and they know Calvinists say God is bringing EVERYTHING to pass according to his will and in their mind they think that means that Calvinists are teaching that God is doing evil deeds.

I believe that is the only real reason Arminianism exists- the voyage of divine exoneration. There are other reasons, probably mostly man centered reasons, but I think that this is the main reason.

I have never seen a Calvinist/Arminian debate where the Arminian did not bring up some horrible deed like RAPE or CHILD MOLESTATION and accuse the Calvinist of preaching a DIVINE RAPIST or DIVINE CHILD MOLESTER.

But if the Arminian would understand that MOTIVE is what makes things good and evil, he could bring his ship to shore and rejoice with the ranks of Calvinists in the exhaustive sovereignty and indescribable grace of God.

 

[seekingthetruth]

What Arminians fail to recognize is that MORALITY can only be attributed to PERSONS.

Deeds cannot, by themselves, be good or evil.

In order for a DEED to be evil a PERSON had to do it and that PERSON had to do it with evil MOTIVES.

Arminians' failure to recognize this is what launches them on their theological voyage to exonerate God from evil. They see evil deeds happening and they know Calvinists say God is bringing EVERYTHING to pass according to his will and in their mind they think that means that Calvinists are teaching that God is doing evil deeds.

I believe that is the only real reason Arminianism exists- the voyage of divine exoneration. There are other reasons, probably mostly man centered reasons, but I think that this is the main reason.

I have never seen a Calvinist/Arminian debate where the Arminian did not bring up some horrible deed like RAPE or CHILD MOLESTATION and accuse the Calvinist of preaching a DIVINE RAPIST or DIVINE CHILD MOLESTER.

But if the Arminian would understand that MOTIVE is what makes things good and evil, he could bring his ship to shore and rejoice with the ranks of Calvinists in the exhaustive sovereignty and indescribable grace of God.

So, homosexuality is not a sin since it is done out of love and has no evil motive?????

John

 

[Amy.G]

So, homosexuality is not a sin since it is done out of love and has no evil motive?????

John

Neither is abortion for the mother who cannot afford to care for her baby. In her mind the baby will be better off, so her motive is good.

:tonofbricks:

 

[Skandelon]

Luke, please try to remain focused on my questions. I understand the moral differences between killing and murder. Your point is taken. But, the ending of a life (like any "evil" or "sin") is either done by God's active/decretive decree or by his permissive decree. Meaning it is either done because God takes an active role to ensure it happens by HIS DOING or because God did not prevent it, but instead chose to allow it. You consistently seem to presume every act (evil or otherwise) is done by God's decretive decree.

Take what you said earlier...

What we call child molestation is that which evil men do with evil intentions.

Child molestation is always evil because those who do it are evil and do it with evil intentions.

Now, you are the one who has argued that God does every deed, even the most evil deed in all of history (crucifixion), but with good motive. So, if you are consistent then you are saying that God does the deed of molestation (or whatever 'non-moral' term you'd like to replace it with to make you feel better).

The deed is not evil because the deed has no personality.

Yet, you just said "molestation" is always evil. What else can you call that "deed" to make it not have "personality."

Let's ask this: Did God actively ensure that Sandusky would molest those boys in the same manner that He actively ensured the crucifixion of Christ? In other words, were both deeds equally determined/decreed by God in your opinion?

 

[Luke2427]

So, homosexuality is not a sin since it is done out of love and has no evil motive?????

John

Not what I said. Retread it.

 

[Luke2427]

Neither is abortion for the mother who cannot afford to care for her baby. In her mind the baby will be better off, so her motive is good.

:tonofbricks:

Not what I said.

All of these terms INCLUDE the evil motives of the doers.

 

[quantumfaith]

Certainly, motive is an essential element of sin and unrighteousness, but the plain and simple core of what makes something evil (sin, unrighteous) is that it is defined to be such in the written record of scripture. Otherwise it is speculation, and speculation is not of necessity "sin".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Neither is abortion for the mother who cannot afford to care for her baby. In her mind the baby will be better off, so her motive is good.

:tonofbricks:

Hmmmm, what about adoption? Shouldn't that be preferred to abortion? This is where the Church needs to be clear & loud to the mother.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But Luke, I do believe this premise you hold to is not all that cut & dry.....Id love to embellish but go to go to work. If this does not degrade to it's typical contemptuous barbs, I would be glad to elaborate later however I will emphasize that this topic should not be a dividing line between Calvinist & non-Calvinist.....there are bridges to understanding here that need to be explored. LATER!

 

[Luke2427]

Certainly, motive is an essential element of sin and unrighteousness, but the plain and simple core of what makes something evil (sin, unrighteous) is that it is defined to be such in the written record of scripture. Otherwise it is speculation, and speculation is not of necessity "sin".

Certainly.

But Jesus in Scripture in Mark 7 says concerning certain DEEDS that the Pharisees thought were evil in themselves-

18And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Sin comes from within man.

Sin comes from the heart.

Killing is not always sin because it doesn't always come from an sinfully motivated heart.

As crude as this, and I really hate to do it, but Skandelon forced the issue-

touching a child's private parts is not always molestation.

If that were the case every mother and father in the history of the world is a child molester.

MOTIVE is everything.

It has to do with the heart.

This is clearly taught throughout Scripture.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, please try to remain focused on my questions. I understand the moral differences between killing and murder. Your point is taken. But, the ending of a life (like any "evil" or "sin") is either done by God's active/decretive decree or by his permissive decree. Meaning it is either done because God takes an active role to ensure it happens by HIS DOING or because God did not prevent it, but instead chose to allow it. You consistently seem to presume every act (evil or otherwise) is done by God's decretive decree.

No, I am not presuming or purporting that ANY evil act is done by God.

God can have no unholy motives so God can do no evil.

The act is only evil on the part of the party doing the act who has evil motives.


Take what you said earlier...

Now, you are the one who has argued that God does every deed, even the most evil deed in all of history (crucifixion), but with good motive.

Every deed has at least double causality.

God KILLED Christ. He did not simply allow it. He brought it to pass. EVERYTHING that ever happens God brings to pass.

But God did not do the most evil deed in history because God's motive for killing Christ was holy and pure.

The Jews' and Romans' motives however were NOT pure.

So, if you are consistent then you are saying that God does the deed of molestation (or whatever 'non-moral' term you'd like to replace it with to make you feel better).

I deal with this in my post to quantum above.

 

[Skandelon]

God KILLED Christ. He did not simply allow it. He brought it to pass. EVERYTHING that ever happens God brings to pass.

So, by that conclusion you believe that in the same manner God brought the crucifixion of Christ to pass He likewise brought to pass the molestation, rape and murder of Dahmer's victims. Right?

Again, like I've said a dozen times, I'm trying to get you to draw any distinction between that which God actively participates in for a divinely redemptive purpose (crucifixion) and that which he permissively decrees (Dahmer's crimes). You have yet to ever draw that distinction despite the fact that most respected Calvinistic scholars do.

But God did not do the most evil deed in history because God's motive for killing Christ was holy and pure.

Nevertheless, you believe 'God killed Christ' and use that as support for your view that God likewise 'molested Dahmer's victims.' (replace the word 'molest' with whatever term you'd like to make God not sound like an evil monster, but the effect is the same. You have contradicted the clear biblical revelation and even most teachings of Calvinistic scholars.)

 

[quantumfaith]

Certainly.

But Jesus in Scripture in Mark 7 says concerning certain DEEDS that the Pharisees thought were evil in themselves-

18And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Sin comes from within man.

Sin comes from the heart.

Killing is not always sin because it doesn't always come from an sinfully motivated heart.

As crude as this, and I really hate to do it, but Skandelon forced the issue-

touching a child's private parts is not always molestation.

If that were the case every mother and father in the history of the world is a child molester.

MOTIVE is everything.

It has to do with the heart.

This is clearly taught throughout Scripture.

I agree with you in that motive plays a huge part, but I am not convinced that it is "one and only" determining factor of evil (sin). Killing is not murder in the context of self defense, or necessarily in war, however killing in fits of rage (pick your situation) I believe can and should be murder (evil/sin) despite the "motive" or impetus for the rage. Also, someone previously mentioned the issue of homosexual conduct. Certainly many who practice such do so with a heart (shaking a fist at the absolutes of God), but some struggle in humility knowing their conduct is regarded as sin by God, yet they might argue their "motive" is pure. I just do not agree that "motive" is the be all and end all in the definition of evil, but I do agree that it is a very important variable in the equation.

 

[Luke2427]

So, by that conclusion you believe that in the same manner God brought the crucifixion of Christ to pass He likewise brought to pass the molestation, rape and murder of Dahmer's victims. Right?

"same manner" is too vague. Be more specific. What do you mean "in the same manner"?

Again, like I've said a dozen times, I'm trying to get you to draw any distinction between that which God actively participates in for a divinely redemptive purpose (crucifixion) and that which he permissively decrees (Dahmer's crimes). You have yet to ever draw that distinction despite the fact that most respected Calvinistic scholars do.

I have drawn a distinction numerous times. Your memory is just terribly.

Nevertheless, you believe 'God killed Christ' and use that as support for your view that God likewise 'molested Dahmer's victims.'

No. Molest is NOT an amoral word. Kill is.

You have to get that right before progress can be made in this conversation.

(replace the word 'molest' with whatever term you'd like to make God not sound like an evil monster, but the effect is the same.

No it is not the same and no it does not make God a monster.

You have contradicted the clear biblical revelation and even most teachings of Calvinistic scholars.)

Actually I have confirmed both.

Neither the Bible NOR Calvinist scholars teach that ANYTHING ever comes to pass by "bear permission".

 

[Luke2427]

I agree with you in that motive plays a huge part, but I am not convinced that it is "one and only" determining factor of evil (sin). Killing is not murder in the context of self defense, or necessarily in war, however killing in fits of rage (pick your situation) I believe can and should be murder (evil/sin) despite the "motive" or impetus for the rage.

That is the motive. In your scenario you PROVIDE the motive which makes killing murder.

Also, someone previously mentioned the issue of homosexual conduct. Certainly many who practice such do so with a heart (shaking a fist at the absolutes of God), but some struggle in humility knowing their conduct is regarded as sin by God, yet they might argue their "motive" is pure.

The motive to fulfill carnal passions at the expense of the moral will of God (as to be distinguished from his decretive will) is NEVER pure.

I just do not agree that "motive" is the be all and end all in the definition of evil, but I do agree that it is a very important variable in the equation.

I understand. But the Bible teaches that it is more than just a very important variable. It is THE factor.

This is why God can premeditate the death of innocent Christ and not sin- his MOTIVE is pure- the PUREST. By that death that he foreordained to come to pass by the hands of evil men, God would save the world.