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The Pre Mil Position
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: While you are just playing word games, why not try for a quadruple negative sentence. It may be more effective in cloaking your sentiments even than a mere triple negative sentence might prove to be. Are you a politician or an attorney by any chance? :laugh:
Is the new heaven and new earth literal and physical? If the new earth is a physical earth (which I believe it is), is it possible that the land that was promised to the Jews is on the new earth, and not the old earth during the supposed MK? Would this not explain the "heavenly" land that the OT saints looked forward to?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I would ask, Is it possible that God will curse those that deny His Word concerning that land and to whom it belongs? I certainly believe so. Ge 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
It well may be a dual promise, both in this world and the next, but to deny that the land that was promised to Abraham and His seed was literally, the land of Caanan, the land wherein he was a stranger, it to absolutely destroy the truth of God and to make God’s Word as of no effect. There are real dire consequences of not believing God concerning His promise to grant that physical land to Abraham. To deny that it was physical land on this earth I believe is to fight against those that God blessed. God has a warning to every one of us. Curse Israel and I will curse you. To deny Israel its God covenanted right to the land of Caanan, is to curse them and to place their lives in jeopardy. I certainly desire no part of any such diatribe against the Biblical fact that the land, the physical land of Caanan belongs to Israel as covenanted to them by God Himself. Those that claim otherwise will find that they are on the wrong side of God’s blessings and curses in the end. Selah.
Ge 17:7 ¶ And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Believe it Amy.
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Heavenly Pilgrim said:
I think Allan answered the question, didn't he? While he & I probably agree on a lot of things, we probably don't agree on this particular issue. However, I think he's been more than forthright on everything, don't you?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
FOS: I think he's been more than forthright on everything, don't you?
HP: Absolutely not. He was being evasive, intentionally or unintentionally it matters not. I asked a straight forward question and he avoided a straight forward answer like the plague. That is his right to do so, but it does not help establish the truth in a debate. Sorry, I do not desire to be unkind, but neither are we ignorant of certain devises.
HP: Absolutely not. He was being evasive, intentionally or unintentionally it matters not. I asked a straight forward question and he avoided a straight forward answer like the plague. That is his right to do so, but it does not help establish the truth in a debate. Sorry, I do not desire to be unkind, but neither are we ignorant of certain devises.
Ge 17:7 ¶ And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
I have asked this before but I don't recall ever getting an answer.
If the land that was promised is everlasting, how can you say that the land in the MK is what was promised since that is only a 1000 year period and the promise was for "everlasting" land? That doesn't make sense to me.
HP, how do you interpret this verse:
Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
I have asked this before but I don't recall ever getting an answer.
If the land that was promised is everlasting, how can you say that the land in the MK is what was promised since that is only a 1000 year period and the promise was for "everlasting" land? That doesn't make sense to me.
HP, how do you interpret this verse:
Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: First, I am not convinced that there will be any literal millennial kingdom established on this earth, represented by a specific and limited ‘thousand year’ period subsequent to the starting of the tribulational period. I still have many questions in my own mind that need answered.
I believe that the word ‘everlasting’, in context with the physical land of Canaan, is used in the sense of ‘lasting the entire duration of the period the earth as we know it’ to exist.
HP: I see that as a promise of the New Jerusalem, a promise that will indeed be everlasting in an eternal and heavenly sense. Notice the passage makes clear it is a heavenly promise yet to come. That is certainly not the focus directly with the covenant promise of physical land in Genesis to Abraham and his seed.
Amy.G said:
I think you make a good point! Why would God create a new earth if He had no intention of anyone living there?
I believe that the MK is a period of time on this earth when Israel WILL perform all that she was supposed to perform. She WILL be the light on the hill to the surrounding Gentile nations, she WILL keep the commandments that the Lord has given her. Jesus Christ will be ruling and reigning IN Jerusalem ON the throne of David and will rule with a rod of iron. He will be the King of kings and Lord of lords. Those nations who choose NOT to come up and worship in the Temple will pay severe consequences. Many don't realise this, but in the Millennial Kingdom there is still sin and death. I don't remember the chapters and verses off the top of my head but if anyone wants them I can find them easy enough.
When the 1,000 years is finished Satan is loosed from the pit and there is a final rebellion. The Lord conquers all, the unsaved are resurrected, and the Great White Throne judgment of UNbelievers occurs. A NEW heaven and a NEW earth are created, and the Lord hands the keys of the Kingdom back to the Father.
The Jews are God's chosen earthly people... whether on this earth on in the new earth. The Church is God's chosen heavenly citizens, whether in this heaven or in the new heaven. Two distinct groups with two distinct purposes and futures.... but all with ONE Lord and Saviour.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Absolute we want the goods! Show us the money!,………. oh I meant 'verses.' :smilewinkgrin:
You said that during the MK, there will still be sin and death and then you say that Satan will be loosed and there will be rebellion. Isn't sin rebellion against God? As long as there is sin, the devil is there doing the tempting. So the devil must be doing his work even in the MK, don't you think?InChrist said:
I don't see why it is so hard to believe that the earthly kingdom will not come to pass until the new earth is formed. This old world will surely pass away and that simple fact proves that the land in the MK is not eternal. The land that was promised is eternal land. I do not believe as HP does that everlasting doesn't mean eternal. The eternal land promised to Israel must be the land on the new earth, not this earth that we live on. And we are also partakers of the promise because we have been grafted into Israel. The new Jerusalem is composed of all believers of all time, Jew and Gentile. At least that's the way I see it.
Amy.G said:You said that during the MK, there will still be sin and death and then you say that Satan will be loosed and there will be rebellion. Isn't sin rebellion against God? As long as there is sin, the devil is there doing the tempting. So the devil must be doing his work even in the MK, don't you think?
I don't see why it is so hard to believe that the earthly kingdom will not come to pass until the new earth is formed. This old world will surely pass away and that simple fact proves that the land in the MK is not eternal. The land that was promised is eternal land. I do not believe as HP does that everlasting doesn't mean eternal. The eternal land promised to Israel must be the land on the new earth, not this earth that we live on. And we are also partakers of the promise because we have been grafted into Israel. The new Jerusalem is composed of all believers of all time, Jew and Gentile. At least that's the way I see it.
Absolutely sin is rebellion against God. Satan is a tempter yes, but he is not responsible for our sin. We are responsible for our own sin, because we are born with a sin nature. We cannot say "the devil made me do it". The same it will be in the MK. Noone will be able to say that they are not responsible for their own sin.
Here are some verses that can only be related to the MK:
We know that this can only be future because this kind of peace among animals has still not occurred. This will be a feature of the peace on earth that only the Prince of peace can bring. Notice that BIRTH must still be occurring amongst both animals AND humans because there is mention of "their young", "sucking children" and "weaned children" ... and it also says "the earth".
Here we again have promises that have not yet occurred and can only be related to future happenings. We still have infants of days, and this passage says "shall be no more hence". It is again speaking of the time when the lion and the lamb will feed together. It talks of the life span of humans being extended again as it was before the flood. Notice that it again mentions offspring, death and sinners.
There will be no war, no weaponry for war, and no learning of war during the MK until Satan is released and the final rebellion occurs.
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This is a direct contrast to anything that Israel has EVER experienced and thus is still future. The Lord, who will be King, shall reign, prosper, execute judgment and justice IN THE EARTH. The question I would have is, IF there is no sin in the earth, then exactly WHAT will the Lord will be executing judgment and justice over?
The Lord is going to rule THE NATIONS with a rod of iron. There will again be JUDGES just as there were when God was the King of Israel as at the beginning of her history. These judges will be the 12 apostles as per Jesus Christ's promise.
Israel WILL one day in the future be the Kingdom of Priests before the Lord that they were meant to be. The other nations WILL come in and worship the Lord in Jerusalem. Again we know that this is still future as this has NEVER occurred at any point in history before.
In the MK the feast of Tabernacles will be kept. Never ever in all the history of Israel has anything like these verses describe occurred, which means that it can only be future. The fact that Jesus Christ is the King IN JERUSALEM at this point and time means that He has COME AGAIN, which makes it still future. A feast that has only EVER been for the Jews will now be kept by ALL the nations, and ALL the families UPON THE EARTH. They will go to Jerusalem to worship the King, who is the Lord of hosts. If they do not do so, then they will receive no rain, and if Egypt does not go up to worship then they will receive a plague (again a sign that sin is still upon the earth).
Anyway, these are just some verses which I believe give us understanding of the MK, and show that there will still be sin, death and judgment upong the earth during this time, and I believe there are plenty more.
Apparently you seem to have trouble understanding.Heavenly Pilgrim said:FOS: I think he's been more than forthright on everything, don't you?
HP: Absolutely not. He was being evasive, intentionally or unintentionally it matters not. I asked a straight forward question and he avoided a straight forward answer like the plague. That is his right to do so, but it does not help establish the truth in a debate. Sorry, I do not desire to be unkind, but neither are we ignorant of certain devises.
How I answered is almost word for word the question you asked in the way YOU asked it.
Which is one reason I didn't understanding in the first place.
Secondly, I was not be evasive. I answered your question point blank and exactly as you asked it. If you did not understand it then ask it another way, but do not blame me for your inability.
Lastly, your posting does indeed show your ignorance in this matter and is revealed in great measure by last sentence. Please stick to discussion and if something isn't answered specifically as wish - Try asking it another way or be more specific to what you want answered.
Amy the devil is not nor does/is he always the one tempting us. James tells us that we are drawn away by our OWN lusts. Satan 'can' tempt us using our lusts but he does not have to do so at all times. We in this fallen world still have to deal with the Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Satan should not be blamed so much for our failures just because we sought something over and above that which is true and right.Amy.G said:
No, the devil is released in the MK to gather all the ungodly together. He will lead them IN their rebellion not TO rebellion. However, till that time their rebellion was only in their heart. Remember that Jesus will rule His Kingdom with a Rod of Iron (unbending and unyeilding resolve). No one will walk in open rebellion till Satan is loosed to gather them together and stand against their King and God.
Because scripture says so if one will take what it says in context.
Amy, the term eternal has more than one meaning and that meaning is defined by context. God never says the Land is eternal but that the covenant (His Promise to Israe) is eternal. IOW - The promise God made He will make good on no matter when in time He chooses to do so. But the fact remains He MUST make good because His promise must be fulfilled - it is eternal and not bound to time or the establishing of another Covenant. Which means that even in the face of another He must still deal with and fulfill the what He told the Israelites back them when He 'established' that covenant.
Wrong. It is the covenant that is eternal NOT the land even though the land is bound up in that covenant. Which means there can be no new Heaven or Earth until the Covenant made to Israel as a people is fulfilled in the manner God told them it was to be - literally.
Please give just one scripture that describes the land as being eternal.
It is the convenant which deals with the land NOT The land itself that is eternal.
We are grafted into Christ NOT Israel. There is no passage anywhere that says we are grafted into Israel. We are placed into Christ and this is said repeatedly and in various ways throughout scripture. The grafting aspect is the same thing only using a differenct symbolism. And it is not referencing personal salvation but that of a people/Nation. Which is what Paul is speaking of in Rom 9-11 (Israel as a Nation who are one people and the Gentile Nation who are one people as well - catagorically speaking) We don't find scrpture saying various kinds of Gentiles but uses the word to speak of one people group and Israel to speak of another people group.And we are also partakers of the promise because we have been grafted into Israel. The new Jerusalem is composed of all believers of all time, Jew and Gentile. At least that's the way I see it.
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Allan said:
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Isn't Israel the olive tree? Gentiles are grafted in as wild branches in the olive tree.
Christ is referred to as the vine. The olive tree is Israel.
Of course God's covenants are eternal, but Genesis says that the land is an "everlasting possession".
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 48:4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee [for] an everlasting possession.
My point is this. If the land promised to Israel is an everlasting possession, and the MK is 1000 years and afterwards the "land" you say they inherited is destroyed, then it wasn't an eternal possession, was it? It can only be an everlasting possession when the new earth is made, because then the earth and the land will be eternal, never to be destroyed.
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Amy, the passage plainly says that the "branches" are Israel, Not the Tree. The 'wild branches' are the Gentiles who are grafted into that which the Jews were orginally apart of before 'they' were removed.Amy.G said:
Jesus is refered to as many things and in like manner we to are refered as such because we are to mirror Him. He is The Branch and we are branches, He is The light and we also are lights, He is the Grape Vine and we are the grapes (ok, that one I can't find anything that correlates but you get the idea
) However this portion of Rom 11 about the branches (not the Tree) will only be understood according the context of the preceding passages.Now I did kindof misspeak when I said Jesus is the Tree (even though He can be understood as The Tree of Life) The tree is actually the blessing of God, of which Jesus is the pinnacle and reason for all blessings. Some say the root mentioned here is Abraham and thus all that came from him (the 12 tribes) are the branches who were God's people. Some say the Jesus is the Root because He is also known as the Root. (Root of David - that which brought forth David).
IOW - It isn't about the Tree Amy because the Tree is the same as the root and no matter who we might presume the root is we know that they are there because it was from that which the tree itself sprung. However what is being dealt with by Paul is the 'branches' that came from that tree.
Amy, the reference was means simply that as long as the land exists it will be theirs. Not that the Land is eternal but the promise regarding the Land is eternal and thus the land, so long as it endures, will always be theirs.
No, because that sister is a new New Earth. It is the same as scripture reference to you being made new. Old things are no more, all things are new (or as if nothing has ever happened).