The Pre-Pentecost Fallen Nature

[The Biblicist]

Many on this forum claim they believe in universal total inability of fallen man. Yet, they claim that none prior to Pentecost were in spiritual union with God (which is indwelling by the Spirit as "union" demands indwelling) through Christ while they lived out their lives between physical birth and physical death because spiritual union (indwelling) was never obtained in their physical lives and not actually obtained or applied to them until the day of Pentecost. That is why some beleive they had to be retained in a type of purgatory state and were not free to enter heaven until Christ arose because they were not regenerated, indwelt, without spiritual union even after death.

However, it is evident that DURING THEIR PHYSICAL LIFE on earth these pre-pentecostal saints epitomized and characterized by Abraham believed the gospel (Acts 10:43; Gal. 3:6-8) obtained remission of sins, justification BEFORE being circumcised (Rom. 4:6-11) and lived "by faith" (Heb. 11) and exercised all other fruit of the Spirit (joy, love, faith, etc.) but still in a unchanged FALLEN CONDITION in spiritual separation from God!!!!!!!

So, can fallen man prior to Pentecost have fellowship with God, come to Christ by faith, have victory over the fallen nature while still in spiritual separation, outside of spiritual union, without new birth, without being "in the Spirit"? Can he come to God by faith and exercise all the fruit of the Spirit while in spiritual separation from God, without new birth without being "in the Spirit"? Is the fallen nature capable of doing all these things before Pentecost but not after Pentecost. Are all the spiritually dead (separated from union with God's Spirit) His spiritual people???????????

Remember, Pentecost did not occur until after the coming of Christ and thus could not have affected any aspect of their lives between birth and death, so to argue that upon Pentecost their spirits were finally brought into spiritual union with God does NOTHING for their whole lives lived on earth. How do Calvinists explain the SPIRITUAL ABILITY without any kind of actual spiritual union, or spiritual birth, since they argue that such spiritual union/birth was not possible until Pentecost??????

1. Is the Pre-Pentecost fallen man capable of doing exactly what the Post-Pentecost fallen man is explicitly said cannot do (Jn. 6:44; 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 7:14-25; 8:7-9) apart from internal transformation by new birth, spiritual union (instead of spiritual separation/death) and "in the Spirit"?

2. Can the Pre-Pentecost fallen nature be overcome when the Post-Pentecost fallen nature cannot be overcome apart from being "in the Spirit (Rom. 7:14-25)?????????

3. If they were in spiritual union (indwelt by the Spirit) BEFORE Pentecost then obviously Pentecost has NOTHING to do with individual indwelling at all or with salvation at all.

4. If the prePentecost fallen man can do all these things without new birth, without being "in the Spirit" without being in spiritual union with God then so can the Post-Pentecostal fallen man. If the Post-Pentecostal fallen man cannot do these things without new birth, spiritual union, "in the Spirit" NETHER CAN THE PRE-PENTECOSTAL FALLEN MAN.

NOTE. Since the fallen dead "spirit" is WITHIN man, for there to be any spiritual "UNION" between the human Spirit with the Spirit of God, there must be INDWELLING by the Spirit or no union exists as man's spirit is INSIDE his body not on the outside. UNION WITHOUT INDWELLING IS OXYMORONIC AND CANNOT EXIST. To be in spiritual UNION is to be indwelt. To have no spiritual union is to be "in the flesh" and "none of his" as spiritually separated/dead persons cannot be claimed by God as "his" people unless all fallen human beings are spiritually his people?????

 

[The Biblicist]

Many on this forum claim they believe in universal total inability of fallen man. Yet, they claim that none prior to Pentecost were in spiritual union with God (which is indwelling by the Spirit as "union" demands indwelling) through Christ while they lived out their lives between physical birth and physical death because spiritual union (indwelling) was never obtained in their physical lives and not actually obtained or applied to them until the day of Pentecost. That is why some beleive they had to be retained in a type of purgatory state and were not free to enter heaven until Christ arose because they were not regenerated, indwelt, without spiritual union even after death.

However, it is evident that DURING THEIR PHYSICAL LIFE on earth these pre-pentecostal saints epitomized and characterized by Abraham believed the gospel (Acts 10:43; Gal. 3:6-8) obtained remission of sins, justification BEFORE being circumcised (Rom. 4:6-11) and lived "by faith" (Heb. 11) and exercised all other fruit of the Spirit (joy, love, faith, etc.) but still in a unchanged FALLEN CONDITION in spiritual separation from God!!!!!!!

So, can fallen man prior to Pentecost have fellowship with God, come to Christ by faith, have victory over the fallen nature while still in spiritual separation, outside of spiritual union, without new birth, without being "in the Spirit"? Can he come to God by faith and exercise all the fruit of the Spirit while in spiritual separation from God, without new birth without being "in the Spirit"? Is the fallen nature capable of doing all these things before Pentecost but not after Pentecost. Are all the spiritually dead (separated from union with God's Spirit) His spiritual people???????????

Remember, Pentecost did not occur until after the coming of Christ and thus could not have affected any aspect of their lives between birth and death, so to argue that upon Pentecost their spirits were finally brought into spiritual union with God does NOTHING for their whole lives lived on earth. How do Calvinists explain the SPIRITUAL ABILITY without any kind of actual spiritual union, or spiritual birth, since they argue that such spiritual union/birth was not possible until Pentecost??????

1. Is the Pre-Pentecost fallen man capable of doing exactly what the Post-Pentecost fallen man is explicitly said cannot do (Jn. 6:44; 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 7:14-25; 8:7-9) apart from internal transformation by new birth, spiritual union (instead of spiritual separation/death) and "in the Spirit"?

2. Can the Pre-Pentecost fallen nature be overcome when the Post-Pentecost fallen nature cannot be overcome apart from being "in the Spirit (Rom. 7:14-25)?????????

3. If they were in spiritual union (indwelt by the Spirit) BEFORE Pentecost then obviously Pentecost has NOTHING to do with individual indwelling at all or with salvation at all.

4. If the prePentecost fallen man can do all these things without new birth, without being "in the Spirit" without being in spiritual union with God then so can the Post-Pentecostal fallen man. If the Post-Pentecostal fallen man cannot do these things without new birth, spiritual union, "in the Spirit" NETHER CAN THE PRE-PENTECOSTAL FALLEN MAN.

NOTE. Since the fallen dead "spirit" is WITHIN man, for there to be any spiritual "UNION" between the human Spirit with the Spirit of God, there must be INDWELLING by the Spirit or no union exists as man's spirit is INSIDE his body not on the outside. UNION WITHOUT INDWELLING IS OXYMORONIC AND CANNOT EXIST. To be in spiritual UNION is to be indwelt. To have no spiritual union is to be "in the flesh" and "none of his" as spiritually separated/dead persons cannot be claimed by God as "his" people unless all fallen human beings are spiritually his people?????

Come on gentleman! Explain why the fallen man prior to Pentecost can do an did do in their physical lives on earth what the post Pentecostal fallen man cannot do apart from spiritual union (indwelling)??????

 

[The Biblicist]

Many on this forum claim they believe in universal total inability of fallen man. Yet, they claim that none prior to Pentecost were in spiritual union with God (which is indwelling by the Spirit as "union" demands indwelling) through Christ while they lived out their lives between physical birth and physical death because spiritual union (indwelling) was never obtained in their physical lives and not actually obtained or applied to them until the day of Pentecost. That is why some beleive they had to be retained in a type of purgatory state and were not free to enter heaven until Christ arose because they were not regenerated, indwelt, without spiritual union even after death.

However, it is evident that DURING THEIR PHYSICAL LIFE on earth these pre-pentecostal saints epitomized and characterized by Abraham believed the gospel (Acts 10:43; Gal. 3:6-8) obtained remission of sins, justification BEFORE being circumcised (Rom. 4:6-11) and lived "by faith" (Heb. 11) and exercised all other fruit of the Spirit (joy, love, faith, etc.) but still in a unchanged FALLEN CONDITION in spiritual separation from God!!!!!!!

So, can fallen man prior to Pentecost have fellowship with God, come to Christ by faith, have victory over the fallen nature while still in spiritual separation, outside of spiritual union, without new birth, without being "in the Spirit"? Can he come to God by faith and exercise all the fruit of the Spirit while in spiritual separation from God, without new birth without being "in the Spirit"? Is the fallen nature capable of doing all these things before Pentecost but not after Pentecost. Are all the spiritually dead (separated from union with God's Spirit) His spiritual people???????????

Remember, Pentecost did not occur until after the coming of Christ and thus could not have affected any aspect of their lives between birth and death, so to argue that upon Pentecost their spirits were finally brought into spiritual union with God does NOTHING for their whole lives lived on earth. How do Calvinists explain the SPIRITUAL ABILITY without any kind of actual spiritual union, or spiritual birth, since they argue that such spiritual union/birth was not possible until Pentecost??????

1. Is the Pre-Pentecost fallen man capable of doing exactly what the Post-Pentecost fallen man is explicitly said cannot do (Jn. 6:44; 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 7:14-25; 8:7-9) apart from internal transformation by new birth, spiritual union (instead of spiritual separation/death) and "in the Spirit"?

2. Can the Pre-Pentecost fallen nature be overcome when the Post-Pentecost fallen nature cannot be overcome apart from being "in the Spirit (Rom. 7:14-25)?????????

3. If they were in spiritual union (indwelt by the Spirit) BEFORE Pentecost then obviously Pentecost has NOTHING to do with individual indwelling at all or with salvation at all.

4. If the prePentecost fallen man can do all these things without new birth, without being "in the Spirit" without being in spiritual union with God then so can the Post-Pentecostal fallen man. If the Post-Pentecostal fallen man cannot do these things without new birth, spiritual union, "in the Spirit" NETHER CAN THE PRE-PENTECOSTAL FALLEN MAN.

NOTE. Since the fallen dead "spirit" is WITHIN man, for there to be any spiritual "UNION" between the human Spirit with the Spirit of God, there must be INDWELLING by the Spirit or no union exists as man's spirit is INSIDE his body not on the outside. UNION WITHOUT INDWELLING IS OXYMORONIC AND CANNOT EXIST. To be in spiritual UNION is to be indwelt. To have no spiritual union is to be "in the flesh" and "none of his" as spiritually separated/dead persons cannot be claimed by God as "his" people unless all fallen human beings are spiritually his people?????

The issue of salvation when reduced to its most basic form is:

1. Man is spiritually separated from God - spiritual death
2. God brings man back into spiritual union with God - spiritual life

So when making this argument by definitions it would go like this:

1. God IS life - Jn. 1:4

2. Spiritual separation from LIFE is spiritual death

3. Spiritual union with LIFE is spiritual life

4. Spiritual union with LIFE is indwelling because this union resides within man

5. Without spiritual union/indwelling there is nothing but spiritual death

6. The baptism in the Spirit is time fixed on Pentecost

7. Therefore, IF the baptism in the Spirit obtains spiritual union/indwelling then all living previous to Pentecost are spiritually dead


The second argument goes like this:

1. The fallen nature of man stems from Adam not from Pentecost - Rom. 5:12

2. The fallen nature IS inability to come to Christ or do and understand spiritual things - Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Jn. 6:44

3. IF overcoming the fallen nature is only possibly by the indwelling Spirit - Rom. 7:14-25

4. IF pleasing God is only possible by living "in the Spirit" - Rom. 8:7-9

5. How then can Pre-Pentecostal saints please God (Heb. 11:6) and walk by faith (Heb. 11:7-38) without the indwelling Spirit or ability to live "in the Spirit"?

6. Is there a THIRD kind of human condition other than those who are (1) "in the flesh" - Rom. 8:8 and those who are "in the Spirit" - Rom. 8:9?

7. The Baptism in the Spirit doctrine as interpreted by universal church advocates demands that Pre-Pentecost fallen man can do what Post-Pentecostal fallen man cannot do apart from the indwelling presence of the Spirit in spiritual union with God - thus producing a third type of human condition.

8. If the universal church doctrine of the baptism in the Spirit is correct, then the pre-Pentecostal saint is superior to the post-Pentecostal saint as the Pre-Pentcostal saint has ability to overcome indwelling sin and can please God WITHOUT the indwelling Spirit of God.


The third argument goes like this:

1. The baptism in the Spirit is not merely time fixed on Pentecost but location fixed as they were not to leave Jerusalem- Acts 1:4-5

2. The Universal invisible church interpretation says the baptism in the Spirit was universally applied on Pentecost to all saints living on earth and in paradise within hades.

3. However, if the baptism in the Spirit was universal in its application why would it matter if waited or were assembled in Jerusalem?

4. However, if the baptism in the Spirit" was an institutional baptism of a localized "house of God" that replaced the former institutionalized "house of God" which was located in Jerusalem, then it must be assembled and in Jerusalem and waiting in order to signify the contrast with and replacement of the former baptized institution.

 

[Yeshua1]

Come on gentleman! Explain why the fallen man prior to Pentecost can do an did do in their physical lives on earth what the post Pentecostal fallen man cannot do apart from spiritual union (indwelling)??????

God chose to overlook things done before the Cross, as paul stated in Acts, and all who were saved by Him under the Old Covenant were due to trhm being credited by God for the Cross yet to come...

So NONE of them actually lived and kept the law enoguh to merit getting saved, and God did not have the law given for that purpose even!

So they had sins remitted against them, but were not indwelt as we all are now the Spirit of promise, for even Jesus said that he couyld not come in that fashion until after he ascended back to the father!

 

[JamesL]

What is "fallen nature" ??

Sounds like a concept that is foreign to scripture

 

[Yeshua1]

What is "fallen nature" ??

Sounds like a concept that is foreign to scripture

Sin natures, that ALL have received since fall of Adam, save for Jesus!

 

[The Biblicist]

God chose to overlook things done before the Cross, as paul stated in Acts, and all who were saved by Him under the Old Covenant were due to trhm being credited by God for the Cross yet to come...

So NONE of them actually lived and kept the law enoguh to merit getting saved, and God did not have the law given for that purpose even!

So they had sins remitted against them, but were not indwelt as we all are now the Spirit of promise, for even Jesus said that he couyld not come in that fashion until after he ascended back to the father!

If you are going to defend your position, then provide a defense rather then making unsubstantiated assertions. However, since you have nothing to defend your position with, I can understand why you can only assert your theories.

Deal with the Biblical realities in my post or don't waste my time reading unsupported assertions.

 

[The Biblicist]

Many on this forum claim they believe in universal total inability of fallen man. Yet, they claim that none prior to Pentecost were in spiritual union with God (which is indwelling by the Spirit as "union" demands indwelling) through Christ while they lived out their lives between physical birth and physical death because spiritual union (indwelling) was never obtained in their physical lives and not actually obtained or applied to them until the day of Pentecost. That is why some beleive they had to be retained in a type of purgatory state and were not free to enter heaven until Christ arose because they were not regenerated, indwelt, without spiritual union even after death.

However, it is evident that DURING THEIR PHYSICAL LIFE on earth these pre-pentecostal saints epitomized and characterized by Abraham believed the gospel (Acts 10:43; Gal. 3:6-8) obtained remission of sins, justification BEFORE being circumcised (Rom. 4:6-11) and lived "by faith" (Heb. 11) and exercised all other fruit of the Spirit (joy, love, faith, etc.) but still in a unchanged FALLEN CONDITION in spiritual separation from God!!!!!!!

So, can fallen man prior to Pentecost have fellowship with God, come to Christ by faith, have victory over the fallen nature while still in spiritual separation, outside of spiritual union, without new birth, without being "in the Spirit"? Can he come to God by faith and exercise all the fruit of the Spirit while in spiritual separation from God, without new birth without being "in the Spirit"? Is the fallen nature capable of doing all these things before Pentecost but not after Pentecost. Are all the spiritually dead (separated from union with God's Spirit) His spiritual people???????????

Remember, Pentecost did not occur until after the coming of Christ and thus could not have affected any aspect of their lives between birth and death, so to argue that upon Pentecost their spirits were finally brought into spiritual union with God does NOTHING for their whole lives lived on earth. How do Calvinists explain the SPIRITUAL ABILITY without any kind of actual spiritual union, or spiritual birth, since they argue that such spiritual union/birth was not possible until Pentecost??????

1. Is the Pre-Pentecost fallen man capable of doing exactly what the Post-Pentecost fallen man is explicitly said cannot do (Jn. 6:44; 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 7:14-25; 8:7-9) apart from internal transformation by new birth, spiritual union (instead of spiritual separation/death) and "in the Spirit"?

2. Can the Pre-Pentecost fallen nature be overcome when the Post-Pentecost fallen nature cannot be overcome apart from being "in the Spirit (Rom. 7:14-25)?????????

3. If they were in spiritual union (indwelt by the Spirit) BEFORE Pentecost then obviously Pentecost has NOTHING to do with individual indwelling at all or with salvation at all.

4. If the prePentecost fallen man can do all these things without new birth, without being "in the Spirit" without being in spiritual union with God then so can the Post-Pentecostal fallen man. If the Post-Pentecostal fallen man cannot do these things without new birth, spiritual union, "in the Spirit" NETHER CAN THE PRE-PENTECOSTAL FALLEN MAN.

NOTE. Since the fallen dead "spirit" is WITHIN man, for there to be any spiritual "UNION" between the human Spirit with the Spirit of God, there must be INDWELLING by the Spirit or no union exists as man's spirit is INSIDE his body not on the outside. UNION WITHOUT INDWELLING IS OXYMORONIC AND CANNOT EXIST. To be in spiritual UNION is to be indwelt. To have no spiritual union is to be "in the flesh" and "none of his" as spiritually separated/dead persons cannot be claimed by God as "his" people unless all fallen human beings are spiritually his people?????

Address the issues please instead of making unprovable assertions.

 

[JamesL]

Sin natures, that ALL have received since fall of Adam, save for Jesus!

What do you mean "nature" ?

Do you mean the mystical notion of inclined behavior, or the biblical notion of a corrupt body/spirit

 

[The Biblicist]

What do you mean "nature" ?

Do you mean the mystical notion of inclined behavior, or the biblical notion of a corrupt body/spirit

I would appreciate if you don't derail this thread by diverting it to another issue. Can you open another thread to discuss this issue? I would be more than happy to enter a discussion on what I mean by a "fallen nature" if you open another thread to discuss it.

 

[HankD]

What is "fallen nature" ??

Sounds like a concept that is foreign to scripture

Read Romans 5:12-21 and in particular verse 12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The emboldened are aorist active indicative verbs which has the sense of completed action in past time with abiding results.

Personally FWIW "have sinned" would probably be better expressed as "had sinned" or just plain "all sinned".

At the moment Adam sinned the entire human race became subject to the law of sin and death (passed upon all men).

That's everyone who was, you and I, and everyone else yet to be physically born.

This event summarily called the "sin nature" or the "fallen nature" with which we are born.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There are those who disagree and those who want to fine tune the "traditional" definition of the the fallen nature.

Some on the BB believe we are born righteous and don't become a sinner until we first sin.

The natural condition of man before Pentecost is the same as after the fact. However, there is a difference in the work of the Holy Spirit upon Christ's ascension but I don't want to add more convolution.

Biblicist you have given us meat and some may have a problem and the "fallen nature" is essential to the discussion.

But I do admit you have given us a worthy subject to contemplate.


HankD