Hi Lisa,
You asked, "
would the people who compile your work into one text have authority over your work?"
You're presuming, first of all, that "your work" is "yours" when you use the adjective "your". How do you know that these Gospels were authentic and that Paul's epistles are authentic? Visit
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com and take note of how many writings claim to be written by apostles.
Now, if you believe that the Holy Spirit is infallibly guiding the Pope and the Magisterium, why do you doubt that the Holy Spirit could not have infallibly guided those who compiled the Biblical texts?
I've got news for you, Lisa: it
was the Magisterium that compiled the Biblical texts.
You wrote, "
You err, as all RCs do, in claiming that the Catholic Church as an institution is responsible for this."
Which is why I doubt that you've read a major work on the formulation of the New Testament canon, because your opinion contradicts what I've read from scholars as a graduate student studying theology.
You wrote, "
So, you agree that what began as Apostolic Tradition became NT Scripture?"
Of course - what else could it be?
So, I guess you meant only New Testament Scripture?
Yes, you are correct.
That doesn't mean that what [Paul] taught was never put in writing.
You are correct. Some of what Paul taught may have been put in writing, but we don't have that today considering the fact that the earliest writing of Paul that we
do have comes from nearly 20 years after Christ ascended into heaven.
My point is that the Early Christians
did not look to Scripture alone for their Christian doctrine; in fact and in practice, it was impossible.
Yes, but we have 1 Tim 3:15, where when Paul could not be face-to-face, he instructed them in writing.
Again, I don't deny that Paul wrote. Why would I even make such a denial? That would be ludicrous for me to do so. The majority of the New Testament is composed of various letters composed by him or dictated by him to a scribe. What I affirm, and what I will continue to affirm, is that the New Testament Church did not adhere to
Sola Scriptura, as it was
de facto impossible for them to do so. So, to require that I believe
only what is written in the Bible is to make a requirement that is
anti-Scriptural.
So, how do you determine that these Traditions are of God and equal to Scirpture?
Because they are the word of God animated by the power of the holy Spirit and guarded by the Magisterium, which is guided and protected by that same Spirit - the Spirit who inspired Scripture.
You have to ask the
same question of the first Christians:
"How, Christians, how do you determine that these Traditions are of God and equal to Scirpture?" They would answer: because they were taught to us by our bishop Matthaeus, who was given authority to preach in the name of Christ by the apostle Thomas who was commissioned by the Son of God, who was sent with all authority in heaven and on earth by the Father.
Now, you wouldn't be admitting that the theology of the "Real Presence" is not Biblical, would you?
Of course I'm not admitting that. I'm demonstrating how the liturgy, which is living Tradition lived out, expresses the correct interpretation and belief regarding the Eucharist. Nowhere in scripture can we find these actions. Yes, we'll find a reference to them, but you won't find the actual people. You won't find the actual bread. You won't find the life of the community. Yes, you'll find written accounts about these people. But the Scripture itself is not the People themselves. There is still a living, breathing Church that is living and practicing and believing the Apostolic Christian faith - one to which the Scriptures witness.
Okay. It's either Scripture or Tradition--not both. Otherwise you have to admit that Scripture and your so-called Apostolic Tradition are one-and-the-same.
No, you are creating a false dichotomy. We've had Apostolic Tradition from the get-go, and Scripture is Apostolic Tradition (the word of God) written down in the words of men. This is
part of Apostolic Tradition. The Tradition continues up until this very day. We're still celebrating and worshipping the Eucharist, and we've never stopped.
So, God, The Holy Spirit had nothing to do with it?
Of course the Spirit had everything to do with it. Now the question of instrumentality comes in. The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity used the instrument of 12 men to begin His Church, guided as they were by the Holy Spirit. Men, Apostolic Men, are the
instrument of the Spirit. Where you find the Magisterium, you find the teaching body protected and guided by the Spirit, irregardless of their human weaknesses (like Peter, for instance).
There is just no substantiation or evidence that anything outside of Scripture bears the authority of God.
As I've shown, all that existed for the first twenty years of Christianity was Apostolic Tradition
outside of Scripture that bore the authority of God.
And, in that first writing of the New Testament, what does Paul say? 1 Thess 2:13 - "And we also thank God constantly for this, that when
you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it
not as the word of men but as what it really is,
the word of God".
What Paul was teaching was not in Scripture. Yes, the Old Testament Scriptures pointed to what Paul was teaching in the sense that they prefigured what he was preaching, but they did not contain the revelation of Jesus Christ in his person, deeds, and words.
What was Apostolic Tradition became Scripture.
We agree on this point. Where we disagree is when you make the bold statement that Scripture encapsulates every last drop of Apostolic Tradition, which I find to be presumptuous.
Okay, I don't remember who said this, but remember--during the Apostolic age, it was believed that Christ would return before the end of their lifetime, otherwords in a very short period of time.
Yes, and the Lord did come in 70 A.D. when he destroyed Jerusalem.
Read this passage in context: Matthew 24:34 - "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place".
God bless,
Carson
[ January 28, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
