The Priority of Lordship

==A lost person, who is dead in sin, can do nothing to please God or to bring about their own salvation (Rom 8:8, Eph 2:1-3, etc).

==I never said a person can be saved without belief.

==As I pointed out, with Scripture, a lost person will not seek the true and Living God apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. See the verses I cited yesterday.

==Of course in those verses Paul is not talking about the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation or anything like that. You are understanding these verses the way you are because you are ignoring other verses. We must understand the whole counsel of Scripture and not just certain parts. As for 1Cor 2:6, well that is talking about believers so I am not sure what that has to do with those who are lost and dead in sin.

==May I quote what you said? You said, "And that we see ALL THE TIME!! Some will start going to church to try to investigate what they have heard even. This is not the Spirit working on them yet -- it is their own spirit.". In your statement it is man who starts the process of salvation, not God. In your statement God picks things up after a mortal makes the first move. However Scripture does not teach such humanistic ideas. My remarks are a response to the humanism in your post/reply.

==My point is that a lost person does not seek the true and Living God apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. A lost person may attend church but if the Holy Spirit is not drawing them to Christ they will not, they cannot, come to Christ (Jn 6:44). Going to church will not save anyone.

==Of course "prevenient grace, common grace" is not the point of passages like John 6:37,44. There is a certain work of the Holy Spirit, in the heart of a lost sinner, that causes that person to come to Christ (Jn 6:37).

 

==And, of course, drawing the elect to Christ without fail.

==That sounds real nice and everything but that is not the teaching of Scripture. God draws to Himself those who He saves. In fact it was a Sovereign act of God that caused the person to come to Christ in the first place (Jn 6:37).

 

==We are to believe, yes, but that belief is from where? God. As was once said, what God commands He provides. No lost person, of their own freewill, will seek the Living God and believe (Rom 3:11-12, Eph 2:8-9, etc). I believe there is a verse in one of Paul's letters to Timothy that also makes this point but being that I am not in my office, I and I can't recall the verse off the top of my head, I can't cite it right now. Either way faith and repentance are gifts from God.

==Why do you think he asked that question and was saved? Because he was given to Christ by the Father and drawn to Him (Jn 6:37-40,44). He was given the gift of faith and repentance and he was saved.

==I know it does not. It is clear that you don't understand Reformed Theology. Maybe you should study the subject before trying to discuss it? Then you would have a better understanding of my statements (etc).

==No unbeliever can do anything, on their own, to please God (Rom 8:8). That is the very clear teaching of Scripture. Those unbelievers who repent and believe do so because God is drawing them to Himself (Jn 6:37-40).

==Of course you are ignoring John 6:44 (etc) where the Scriptures talk about a calling to salvation. Those who are called come to Christ and are raised up on the last day (Jn 6:37-40,44). The statement you made above is dangerously close to universalism. All men, in John 12:32, most likely refers to "all men" in the general sense and not the specific sense. Or it may refer to the general preaching of the Gospel to all men.

==Your statements don't fit Scripture.

==Excuse me, but earlier you said that is not the case in salvation. Let me quote you: "And that we see ALL THE TIME!! Some will start going to church to try to investigate what they have heard even. This is not the Spirit working on them yet -- it is their own spirit". So are you now backing down from that statement? Is it poorly worded? What is the deal? Either the Holy Spirit draws people to Christ or He does not. Either it is the work of the Spirit of God in their heart that causes them to seek after the true God or it is not. Either His call is effective as Jesus talks about in John 6:37 or it is not. Which is it?

 

==Well first I, and some scholars, disagree with your position on Eph 2:8. However Scripture does, in other places, teach the same idea. In Scripture, for example, we are told that repentance is granted (2Tim 2:25), we are told that faith is granted to people (Phil 1:29), we are told that those who are appointed to eternal life believe (Acts 13:48), that only those the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37), that no person may come to Jesus apart from the drawing of God (Jn 6:44), etc. Salvation is of the Lord.

==I was talking about having a discussion. It helps to understand something before a person tries to discuss it. Don't you agree? I mean if I knew nothing about the functionalist vs. intentionalist debate surrounding Hitler's "final solution" would I try to discuss it with someone who held to one of those two positions? Of course not. I would study up on the subject and then try to have discussions.

 

==The Bible teaches that both repentance and faith are granted by God to the elect. No person can come to Christ apart from the direct, saving, drawing of the the Spirit of God (Jn 6:44).

==I don't know what that has to do with the point I made. So, I will repeat myself. No lost person, of their own freewill, will seek the Living God and believe (Rom 3:11-12, Eph 2:8-9, etc). A lost person, who is dead in sin, can do nothing to please God or to gain God's acceptance (Rom 8:8, Rom 4:4-5). Faith is a gift (Eph 2:8-9, Phil 1:29) from God to those He has chosen to save.

==Granted means to allow, not to teach. If you grant something you allow it to be/happen.

==That is 100% wrong and unBiblical. It is 180 degrees backwards.

Jesus said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" -Jn 6:37

A person does not come to Christ (belief) unless they are given to Him by the Father first (see also Jn 10:28-29). According to Jesus, those the Father gives Him will come to Him. A person cannot come to Christ, believe in Christ, unless they were given to Him by the Father.

O, and in case you try to say that coming to Christ and believing in Christ are two different things I would urge you to consider John 17:2 where Jesus states:

"even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life" -Jn 17:2

Who does Jesus give eternal life to? Those who believe (Jn 3:16, 5:24, etc). Who are those who believe? Those the Father has given Jesus (Jn 6:44, 17:2). Which comes first belief or giving? According to Jesus it is the giving (by the Father to the Son) which comes first (Jn 6:37) then the person believes or comes to Christ.

This is in perfect agreement with Paul's words in Eph 1.

==What reformed scholars have you studied?

==John 6:44 says all men are called? Yes your were responding to my comment on John 6:44 which does not say all men are called.

Jesus said:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" -Jn 6:44

Those who are drawn are raised up on the last day. What does that mean? Those who are drawn are savingly drawn. It is an effective calling/drawing that always results in true salvation (Jn 6:37-40). Nobody who is given to Jesus, who is drawn in this way, fails to be saved. The verse says nothing about all men being drawn. Unless you were trying to talk about John 12:32? Clearly that verse is not saying that all men are drawn to Christ in a saving way (see what I just said about Jn 6:44). The verse is probably talking about "all men" in a general, not specific, sense.

==The phrase all men can have a specific definition (every person) or it can have a general definition (not every single person). A good example of this would be Matthew 2:3. Was every single person in Jerusalem troubled? I doubt every single person even knew the wise men were there. Here "all" is being used in a general sense. Comparing John 6:44 with John 12:32 it is clear that 12:32 cannot be saying that all men are drawn to Christ in a saving way. Why? Because that would mean universalism since Jesus said, in 6:44, that those who are drawn are raised to life on the last day (see also 6:40). Therefore John 12:32 must be talking about some sort of different call or it is using the term "all" in a more general sense (ie..all types of people, people from all nations, etc).