The problem of evil.

[37818]

God is Omnibenevolent.
Infinititly good.

God is omnipotent.
Infinititly powerful.

God is the creator of good and evil.
Genesis 2:9.
Isaiah 45:7.

Evil cannot exist without finite and Temporal good.
Genesis 1:1.
Genesis 2:9.
Genesis 1:31.
Revelation 21:1.
Revelation 21:27.

Ezekiel 28:13-15.
John 8:44.
Matthew 25:41.
Revelation 20:10-15.

 

[Deacon]

Your posts are so cryptic.
I’m lost at how most if those verses apply.

But your use of OMNIBENEVOLENCE opens some doors to a topic that you seem to dance around frequently.

Here’s a quote by Norman Geisler.

“Though an omnipotent God can do whatever is possible, an omnibenevolent God is only able to do what is moral, and there would be nothing morally right about forcing moral beings to go against their will. God clearly wants all to be saved, but “irresistible grace on the unwilling” is in opposition to God-given human freedom. Hence, there is no guarantee (such as is offered by universalism) that all people will be saved; God’s omnibenevolence will not allow Him to do everything His omnipotence could otherwise do.”
Geisler, ST, vol 3, p. 191
​

That might get something started.

Rob

 

[Van]

The problem of evil is an old and false effort to create confusion.

Lets start (as Deacon did) with the assertion that God is Omnibenevolent. First we need to define the term. How about God is always good, and His goodness is unlimited. Say your family is in the path of a tornado, and your home and loved ones are destroyed. Now would you say God is good when some of His provisions allow calamity to impact our lives. God has mercy on whom He has mercy, yet does not have mercy on all. Those that do not receive His mercy, would they say that action was good?
Would Judas say God was Omnibenevolent when God chose Judas to be the "betrayer?" Good in that it served God's purpose, utilitarian goodness, but not for those sacrificed.

 

[37818]

Your posts are so cryptic.
I’m lost at how most if those verses apply.

But your use of OMNIBENEVOLENCE opens some doors to a topic that you seem to dance around frequently.

Here’s a quote by Norman Geisler.

“Though an omnipotent God can do whatever is possible, an omnibenevolent God is only able to do what is moral, and there would be nothing morally right about forcing moral beings to go against their will. God clearly wants all to be saved, but “irresistible grace on the unwilling” is in opposition to God-given human freedom. Hence, there is no guarantee (such as is offered by universalism) that all people will be saved; God’s omnibenevolence will not allow Him to do everything His omnipotence could otherwise do.”
Geisler, ST, vol 3, p. 191
​

That might get something started.

Rob

Infinititly good.

The difference is between infinite and finite.

 

[37818]

The problem of evil is an old and false effort to create confusion.

Lets start (as Deacon did) with the assertion that God is Omnibenevolent. First we need to define the term. How about God is always good, and His goodness is unlimited. Say your family is in the path of a tornado, and your home and loved ones are destroyed. Now would you say God is good when some of His provisions allow calamity to impact our lives. God has mercy on whom He has mercy, yet does not have mercy on all. Those that do not receive His mercy, would they say that action was good?
Would Judas say God was Omnibenevolent when God chose Judas to be the "betrayer?" Good in that it served God's purpose, utilitarian goodness, but not for those sacrificed.

Infinititly good.

The difference is between being infinite or finite.

 

[37818]

Infinititly good.

Evil cannot exist without finite and temporal good.

 

[Van]

The difference is between being infinite or finite.

No, that has nothing to do with the bogus claim God is Omnibenevolent.

 

[37818]

No, that has nothing to do with the bogus claim God is Omnibenevolent.

Prove your premise.

 

[Silverhair]

No, that has nothing to do with the bogus claim God is Omnibenevolent.

Both justice and mercy (or love) are attributes of an unchangeable and infinite God. God by His very nature manifests to all His creatures what flows from all His attributes.95 So, whereas there is nothing in the sinner to merit God’s love, nonetheless, there is something in God that prompts Him to love all sinners, namely, God is all-loving (omnibenevolent).96
Geisler Chosen But Free PDF pg 172

An all-loving God (1 John 4:16) loves all (John 3:16) and wants all to come to salvation (1 Timothy 2:3-5; cf. 2 Peter 3:9).
Geisler Chosen But Free PDF pg 585

 

[Van]

Prove your premise.

See post #3

 

[Van]

Both justice and mercy (or love) are attributes of an unchangeable and infinite God. God by His very nature manifests to all His creatures what flows from all His attributes.95 So, whereas there is nothing in the sinner to merit God’s love, nonetheless, there is something in God that prompts Him to love all sinners, namely, God is all-loving (omnibenevolent).96
Geisler Chosen But Free PDF pg 172

An all-loving God (1 John 4:16) loves all (John 3:16) and wants all to come to salvation (1 Timothy 2:3-5; cf. 2 Peter 3:9).
Geisler Chosen But Free PDF pg 585

Once again, we get the fiction that God's love for sinners will not allow Him to condemn them to Hades and Gehenna and the Lake of Fire.

God's love for humanity resulted in God giving His uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have everlasting life. But the love does not impact God sending all those who do not believe into Christ to destruction.

1 John 4:16 addresses believers who have been transferred into Christ, and thus abide in God and in God's love.

 

[Silverhair]

See post #3

That's your opinion Van.

 

[Silverhair]

Once again, we get the fiction that God's love for sinners will not allow Him to condemn them to Hades and Gehenna and the Lake of Fire.

God's love for humanity resulted in God giving His uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have everlasting life. But the love does not impact God sending all those who do not believe into Christ to destruction.

1 John 4:16 addresses believers who have been transferred into Christ, and thus abide in God and in God's love.

The fact that God loves all humanity does not require that He not condemn those that reject Him and the salvation He offers.

 

[37818]

See post #3

That doesn't provide any proofs.

You have no proof.

A mere finite all good is not an infinite good.

God is infinite.

 

[Van]

That's your opinion Van.

First you ask for me to substantiate my view, then you dismiss the substantiation as "opinion"

That gives me a pretty hard row to hoe.

Lets start (as Deacon did) with the assertion that God is Omnibenevolent. First we need to define the term. How about God is always good, and His goodness is unlimited. Say your family is in the path of a tornado, and your home and loved ones are destroyed. Now would you say God is good when some of His provisions allow calamity to impact our lives. God has mercy on whom He has mercy, yet does not have mercy on all. Those that do not receive His mercy, would they say that action was good?
Would Judas say God was Omnibenevolent when God chose Judas to be the "betrayer?" Good in that it served God's purpose, utilitarian goodness, but not for those sacrificed.​

1) Provided a definition of Omnibenevolent. No challenge was offered such as Omnibenevolent does not mean God is always good, or that His goodness is limited.

2) God causes calamity or disaster, and those impacted would not consider the circumstance "good" for them. (2 Kings 22:16)

3) God chose Judas to be the "betrayer." (John 13:18)

 

[Van]

The underlying position of the taint so naysayers is God cannot limit His attributes, such as being made a little lower than God (or angels)or limit His benevolence to those He loves, such as condemning unbelievers to Hades.

Basically, the so-called "Problem of Evil" arises from biblical ignorance.

 

[37818]

No, that has nothing to do with the bogus claim God is Omnibenevolent.

For no specified reason.

 

[Van]

What is the "Mystery of Evil?" If God is always good, meaning He always acts to provide mercy to those He loves, how did evil enter the world? Once again the answer is God does not always act to provide mercy to those He loves.

What was God's "good" purpose of creation? So that He could choose a people for His own possession! And what is the "good" method of selection? God discerns who repents or turns from his or her own self-reliance and puts their faith in God alone! Thus our ability to choose other than God is necessary fulfill God's purpose of creation.

 

[37818]

What is the "Mystery of Evil?" If God is always good, meaning He always acts to provide mercy to those He loves, how did evil enter the world? Once again the answer is God does not always act to provide mercy to those He loves.

What was God's "good" purpose of creation? So that He could choose a people for His own possession! And what is the "good" method of selection? God discerns who repents or turns from his or her own self-reliance and puts their faith in God alone! Thus our ability to choose other than God is necessary fulfill God's purpose of creation.

Good.
Genesis 1:31, And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Good and evil.
Genesis 2:9, And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

First mention of evil.

 

[Van]

Good.
Genesis 1:31, And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Good and evil.
Genesis 2:9, And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

First mention of evil.

Yes the provision of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in accordance with God's "good" purpose, but the capacity of Adam to choose not to do as God had indicated was innate in God's creation of Adam, again as a necessity to fulfill God's purpose!!