Lol. I have no dilemma there brother. What John taught is in perfect harmony with all other scriptures concerning regeneration.
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The Problem of Regeneration Preceding Faith
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Lol. I have no dilemma there brother. What John taught is in perfect harmony with all other scriptures concerning regeneration.
Im sure you know this, but from a Calvinist perspective receiving the HS comes after faith. Regeneration of the soul is a different act than when the HS perminently resides a believer.
However, the view I am offering in this thread sees regeneration as a complete work that encompases forgiveness of sins (justification), adoption, and receiving the HS all happening simultaneously AFTER one turns to Christ by faith. Yet I still hold to sovereign grace and the internal call to the heart of a lost person that irresistably draws them to Christ being a work of the HS prior to faith happening.
And where did you get that idea?
I did not mean that as an insult, so I apologize if it came across that way. I should have not said your dilemma as in "your problem" but rather "the dilemma" meaning that you brought up a valid argument that needs to be examined. I have heard it discussed a few times here, but havent thought it through in awhile.
I always believed, as a Calvinist, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is not the same as regeneration. However regeneration is considered to be the work of the Spirit bringing someone to life in order to lead them to faith which always results in His staying with them (indwelling). correct me if I am wrong
I did not intend that to come across as Paul's intent of writing the book. Thanks for keeping me on my toes
You are correct. The two are not the same thing but are closely related.
Correct. My objection was that you appeared to be saying the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was somehow subsequent to and separate from regeneration and faith. Rather like the heretical "second blessing" of Pentecostalism.
There are actually some well known Calvinist who understand and teach that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit IS Regeneration/born again.
Here is a quote from a John MacArthur sermon on the Holy Spirit...
" Paul's point is pretty simple. If a person receives eternal salvation through trust in Christ who is publicly displayed as crucified, verse 1, and at that point by believing in the crucified Christ has received the fullness of the indwelling Holy Spirit as all believers do at the point of salvation, and if with the Spirit taking up residence in that believer's life, the power of God is therefore placed at that believer's disposal, why would anyone turn to human effort to achieve spiritual goals?"
John Piper is another one who understands and teaches the Holy Spirit indwelling is being born again...
"So let’s turn now to the question: What happens in the new birth? I will try to put the answer in three statements. The first two we will deal with today, and the third we will deal with (Lord willing) next week. 1) What happens in the new birth is not getting new religion but getting new life. 2) What happens in the new birth is not merely affirming the supernatural in Jesus but experiencing the supernatural in yourself. 3) What happens in the new birth is not the improvement of your old human nature but the creation of a new human nature—a nature that is really you, and is forgiven and cleansed; and a nature that is really new, and is being formed by the indwelling Spirit of God. Let’s take those one at a time."
Of course like I said any good Calvinist (I consider some here better Calvinists than most...or at least better than me
) would know this. Sadly, we have a non-Calvinist incorrectly generalizing what is and isn't Reformed doctrine.
I find it odd that you would think Piper and MacArthur not "good" Calvinist for understanding and teaching that being born again and the Spirit indwelling are the same.Of course like I said any good Calvinist (I consider some here better Calvinists than most...or at least better than me
Assuming the giving and or receiving of the Holy Spirit is relative to, "regeneration".
I was merely pointing out that Jesus stated in John 16:7 that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit would not come neither could it be received unless he went away. He was, in just a few hours, going away in death, I think.
It is also stated in John 7:39 that the Holy Spirit would not be given, nor received, until after Jesus is glorified. Jesus prayed for this glory in John 17:5 I think.
YLT Gal 3:14 that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
Is, "the faith," through which we received the Holy Spirit, to do what ever it is that the Spirit does, found somewhere in the going away and the glorifying of Jesus? Doesn't Gal. 3:14 mean that, "the belief," whether believed or not, had to take place before the Holy Spirit could be given and or received?
I say the Holy Spirit could not be given, nor received, until the Son, went away in death, gave his life, the belief of the Father, and was therefore glorified by the Father, exalted, and given a name above all names.
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Phil 2:8,9
Who by him do believe in God, <Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; that raised him up from the dead,> and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21 with Gal 1:1 inserted.
I was merely pointing out that Jesus stated in John 16:7 that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit would not come neither could it be received unless he went away. He was, in just a few hours, going away in death, I think.
It is also stated in John 7:39 that the Holy Spirit would not be given, nor received, until after Jesus is glorified. Jesus prayed for this glory in John 17:5 I think.
YLT Gal 3:14 that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
Is, "the faith," through which we received the Holy Spirit, to do what ever it is that the Spirit does, found somewhere in the going away and the glorifying of Jesus? Doesn't Gal. 3:14 mean that, "the belief," whether believed or not, had to take place before the Holy Spirit could be given and or received?
I say the Holy Spirit could not be given, nor received, until the Son, went away in death, gave his life, the belief of the Father, and was therefore glorified by the Father, exalted, and given a name above all names.
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Phil 2:8,9
Who by him do believe in God, <Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; that raised him up from the dead,> and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21 with Gal 1:1 inserted.
That is not what any of them were getting at in what you quoted out of context. Folks, critical reading and education is fundamental.
The biblical meaning of individual regeneration is in reference to being made part of the corporate regeneration [of the Israel of God] through the washing and cleansing of the gospel.
This has nothing to do with the birth from the Jerusalem that is above, our mother. The Spirit blows where He wills. In no way does the gospel or it's minsters convey the Spirit to bring about the heavenly birth. That is done 'not of blood, nor of the will of man, nor of the will of the flesh, but of God'.
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Since you had no say in your Natural Birth, you also have no say in your Spiritual Birth... That's a simple explanation... Brother Glen
You would be correct.
Oh my goodness! It is EXACTLY what they say it is. Go read the whole sermon folks. It is not out of context one bit.
How in the world can this be out of context??
" Paul's point is pretty simple. If a person receives eternal salvation through trust in Christ who is publicly displayed as crucified, verse 1, and at that point by believing in the crucified Christ has received the fullness of the indwelling Holy Spirit as all believers do at the point of salvation, and if with the Spirit taking up residence in that believer's life, the power of God is therefore placed at that believer's disposal, why would anyone turn to human effort to achieve spiritual goals?"
You honestly think this doesn't apply as direct opposition to your separation doctrine?
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I do not believe you receive the Holy Spirit because you believe of yourself something. I believe you receive the Holy Spirit because Jesus Christ the Son of God gave his life on the cross. I believe Jesus giving his life, Jesus becoming obedient unto death even the death of the cross <Phil 2:8 was the belief, the faith, of God the Father of Jesus, Wherefore, because of that obedience, God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: God the Father raised Jesus the Son from the dead. <Gal 1:1
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Phil 2:8.9 is my understanding of the phrase, obedience of faith, Rom 1:5 Rom 16:26 That is why Paul was call as an apostle and why the gospel went to the nations.
IMHO the resurrection from the dead (regeneration, firstborn from the dead) of Jesus the Son followed, obedience of faith.
God elects and gives the Holy Spirit and the recipient is moved from unbelief unto belief.
That is what took place with Paul. Paul was going down the road in unbelief and God elected, called gave and Paul was then of belief, A believing one.
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"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20)
Hmmm...you would expect Jesus to have said, "because thou hast been born of God, thou hast believed".
I have yet found an Arminian willing to take 1 John 5:1. I mentioned it earlier and it just got sidestepped. I don't blame them since their position would disintegrate by addressing it.
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him."
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