The Problem with Arminian Free Willism

[webdog]

:1_grouphug:

Sinners have enough "free will" to know thru general revealtion of nature God exists, NOT free will to know Him in a saving sense, as that requires the work of the HS to enable sinner to see and receive jesus as Lord!

...which happens through the Gospel, our conscience, circumstances, creation, and our very location on Earth and in history. All work of the Spirit done to enable sinners to repent.

 

[The Biblicist]

Sinners have evil hearts and intents, that is their fallen natures!

faith is not inherit in us, its gets deposited by the HS into those who are to be the saved of God!

The human heart is the problem. It is in an immutalbe state of unbeleif and resistance to God (Rom. 8:7-8). Notice that Paul says that those "in the flesh" cannot please God (Rom. 8:8). Hence, as long as they exist "in the flesh" they cannot please God due to immutability of their heart's rebellion agaist God. This "old" nature never changes even after new birth as it continues in an immutable state of sin and resistance (Rom. 7:18-20).

The only other alternative he offers in contrast to those "in the flesh" are those "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:9). One cannot be "in the Spirit" without regeneration as that brings a person into spiritual UNION with God (Rom. 8:9).

The reason God must give a "new" heart is because faith is the expression of the heart "for with the heart man believeth" (Rom. 10:8). God gives a believing heart. The giving of a "new" heart is a creative work of God "in Christ" (Eph. 2:10a). It is this "new" creature that expresses faith. That is why conversion is the fruit of regeneration not vice versa.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said "I will draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32 - not merely Calvinism's arbitrarily select "few" of Matt 7.

And even by Calvinist standards the John 6 "Drawing" of mankind by God - enables all the choice in the world - that depravity disables.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Arminian position is that without God, without the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit - all mankind is in the position of Romans 3 "No one seeks after God - no not one". And the will is "enslaved" to sin and sinning.

But God does not leave mankind there - rather God "DRAWS ALL unto HIM" John 12:32 for God "IS NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Pter 3.

Now what is facinating about this Bible fact that Sovereignly chose to provide that supernatural element where in Eden He put supernatural "EMNITY between the see of the woman and the see of the serpent" Gen 3 - is that in John 6 Christ said that such supernatural "Drawing of ALL" is needed for anyone to Come to Him. Even Calvinists ADMIT that the supernatural drawing of God - "drawing ALL" as Christ said - is sufficient to ENABLE all the choice that depravity DISABLES!

Buy their own doctrine - their view falls apart!

How then can they continue with it??

 

[The Biblicist]

Christ said "I will draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32 - not merely Calvinism's arbitrarily select "few" of Matt 7.

And even by Calvinist standards the John 6 "Drawing" of mankind by God - enables all the choice in the world - that depravity disables.

in Christ,

Bob

You are jerking the text out of its context.

1. Gentiles considered unclean and outside the realm of salvation by Jews are seeking Jesus in this context.

2. The Greek text has the word "all" without the definite article and that construction means "all classes/kinds" inclusive of Gentiles and Jews. Thus inclusive of the "other sheep" that are not in the Jewish fold.

3. Jesus has already given an extensive instruction on the word "all" in regard to those being given and drawn to Christ by the Father in John 6:36-45,64-65 and "ALL" given are "ALL" that come and take note of the phrase "and will raise him up at the last day" ties verses 39,40,44, and 54 together referring to the same "ALL" first introduced in verse 39. This sinks your ship completely and uttterly and totally.

You can't deal with these contextual factors. You have never dealt with these contextual factors. You best bet is to continue to ignore these contextual factors as that is the only way you can keep on perverting John 12:32.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Arminian position is that without God, without the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit - all mankind is in the position of Romans 3 "No one seeks after God - no not one". And the will is "enslaved" to sin and sinning.

That is also my position (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13-14)

But God does not leave mankind there - rather God "DRAWS ALL unto HIM" John 12:32 for God "IS NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Pter 3.

In both texs the Greek term translated "all" is found in the anarthous construction and therefore it means "all kinds/classes" not merely Jews. Thus all without distinction of kind rather than all without exception.

Now what is facinating about this Bible fact that Sovereignly chose to provide that supernatural element where in Eden He put supernatural "EMNITY between the see of the woman and the see of the serpent" Gen 3 - is that in John 6 Christ said that such supernatural "Drawing of ALL" is needed for anyone to Come to Him. Even Calvinists ADMIT that the supernatural drawing of God - "drawing ALL" as Christ said - is sufficient to ENABLE all the choice that depravity DISABLES!

You simply ignore the clear contextual factors of John 6:36-45. Notice that the phrase that concludes verse 44 "and shall raise him up at the last day" is first used in this context in verse 39 tying verse 44 with "all" those in verses 37-39. He is referring to "ALL" those given to Christ by the Father and He gives them by drawing them to Christ (vv. 39, 44) as the flip side of coming to Christ is being drawn by the Father and yet "ALL" who come to the son NONE SHALL BE LOST (v. 39). They are the same persons and "ALL" given are "ALL" who come (vv. 37-39) and these "ALL" are those "raised up at the last day" to resurrection of life because "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" "OF ALL" the Father gave to him.

So only by jerking verses out of context, ignoring contextual factors, thus perverting the scriptures are you able to play this little game of deceit.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said "I will draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32 - not merely Calvinism's arbitrarily select "few" of Matt 7.

And even by Calvinist standards the John 6 "Drawing" of mankind by God - enables all the choice in the world - that depravity disables.

You are jerking the text out of its context.

Note even remotely.

Jesus did not say "I will draw ONE from every nation" or "some arbitrarily selected FEW of each nation" in John 12:32 he draws an unqualified "ALL".

Just as in John 16 a few chapters later "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" and in John 3 "God so loved the WORLD --- yes really".

The them in the book of John is consistently not Calvinism's arbitrary selection nor limited-gospel.

1. Gentiles considered unclean and outside the realm of salvation

In John 12 Jesus did NOT say "Gentiles are unclean - I will draw SOME of the unclean Gentiles to me".

And I think we both know that.

2. The Greek text has the word "all" without the definite article

Indeed not THE ALL - but the unqualified all. And not an imaginary insert of "All of THE people from each SORT of nation that are among the arbitrarily selected FEW in Calvinism's Gospel".

Nothing at all about "all sorts" and and nothing about "a FEW of all sorts" as the Calvinist model demands to eisegete into the text.

and that construction means "all classes/kinds" inclusive of Gentiles and Jews. Thus inclusive of the "other sheep" that are not in the Jewish fold.

This is not simply "an other sheep" statement by Christ rather it is the John 3 "God so loved the WORLD -- yes really" statement that John is so happy to report.

For as John says in 1 John 4 "God sent Christ to be the Savior of the WORLD" -- not "The Savior of a few of all sorts of people in the world" as the Calvinist model demands to eisegete.

3. Jesus has already given an extensive instruction on the word "all" in regard to those being given and drawn to Christ by the Father in John 6:36-45,64-65 and "ALL" given are "ALL" that come and take note of the phrase "and will raise him up at the last day" ties verses 39,40,44, and 54 together referring to the same "ALL" first introduced in verse 39.

you are carefully avoiding the actual statements in John 6 because this is the only way Calvinism survives it.

This is NOT an argument about "unclean gentiles" as much as Calvinism may need to eisegete that into the text.

John 6

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.




The statement above applies to ALL -- the unqualified ALL of John 12:32. For you cannot eisegete in "only SOME from all sorts of people cannot come to me unless the Father DRAWS him".


Impossible to invoke the Calvinist eisegesis into John 6


Just as John quotes Christ in Rev 3 "I stand a the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in"



He does not say "if some arbitrarily select FEW of ALL sorts of people hear well then they have a shot at salvation".



And this is the result of John's statement in 1John 2:2 that Christ is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".


Calvinism does not survive 1John 2 or John 12:32 or 1John 4 or John 3:16... - or the writings of John in general.


in Christ,


Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Now what is facinating about this Bible fact that Sovereignly chose to provide that supernatural element where in Eden He put supernatural "EMNITY between the see of the woman and the see of the serpent" Gen 3 - is that in John 6 Christ said that such supernatural "Drawing of ALL" is needed for anyone to Come to Him. Even Calvinists ADMIT that the supernatural drawing of God - "drawing ALL" as Christ said - is sufficient to ENABLE all the choice that depravity DISABLES!

John 6

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You simply ignore the clear contextual factors of John 6:36-45.

What I am ignoring is the eisgetical "inserts" that the Calvinist argument "needs" to insert.

Notice that the phrase that concludes verse 44 "and shall raise him up at the last day" is first used in this context in verse 39 tying verse 44 with "all" those in verses 37-39.

That convolution does not work in the text to undo the nature of the drawing of ALL.

Christ does not say "ALL of the arbitrarily select FEW that I DRAW WILL come and will be raised up".

The sequence in John is God so So Loved the WORLD, and Draws ALL - and the fact that NONE (no note a single one no matter how many SORTS you insert) can come to him APART from that Drawing of ALL. And then comes that "qualified" part where Christ says that of those that DO hear and DO come to Him - he will raise them up on the last day.

The unqualified starting context is the God that "is not willing for ANY to Perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

The unqualified starting context is the God that "so Loved the WORLD -- yes really".

The unqualified starting context is the God that "Draws ALL" without any qualifier inserted.

The unqualified condition is that NONE can come to Christ without that drawing (no not a single exception).

The unqualified condition is "I stand a the door and knock and if ANYone hears and opens the door".

And WITHIN that drawing of ALL context at the start is then to the QUALIFIED context of one who hears AND OPENS the door, one who responds AND comes to Him.

It is the incredibly obvious nature of the subject that Calvinism is so bent on ignoring - thus it does not survive the writings of John.

You keep jerking the text out of context so as to eliminate the unqualified portion of the text and only focus on the areas that are indeed qualified - because Calvinism's narrow view cannot tolerate a God who really does "So Love the WORLD" that He "Sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Christ said "I will draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32 - not merely Calvinism's arbitrarily select "few" of Matt 7.

And even by Calvinist standards the John 6 "Drawing" of mankind by God - enables all the choice in the world - that depravity disables.

Anyone could defend anything by your haphazard jumping from proof text to proof text without proper regard for the immediate context for each proof text. This is the classic cult type of hermeutical defense.

Note even remotely.

Jesus did not say "I will draw ONE from every nation" or "some arbitrarily selected FEW of each nation" in John 12:32 he draws an unqualified "ALL".

you erect straw men arguments and then burn them - how convenient. I never stated anything like these arguments.

1. The term "all" has already been contextually defined previously in a fuller context in John 6:37-44 and nothing you can say can change that.

2. John 6:44 is contextually identified and connected with the "all" of John 6:39 by the last phrase in verse 44 and nothing you can say will change that.

3. John 6:44 is a contextual EXPLANATORY response to the rejection by those in verses 41-43 who are "murmuring" against him. They reject him because they were not drawn to him by the Father is the explanation and nothing you can say will change that contexual based fact.

Just as in John 16 a few chapters later "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" and in John 3 "God so loved the WORLD --- yes really".

Jumping out of one context into another context. The word "world" to a Jew, and he was talking to a Jewish scholar in John 3 and to Jews in John 16, can refer to "mankind" in general or all races outside of Judaism in particular. It is rarely used to mean every human being ever born and ever will be born.

In John 12 Jesus did NOT say "Gentiles are unclean - I will draw SOME of the unclean Gentiles to me".

Another straw man argument. The word "all" in the anarthous construct can mean all classes, all kinds, all without distinction. It is rarely used to mean all without exception and in this context cannot mean "all without exception" as His doctrine on drawing has been fully spelled out previously in John 6 and it excluded those in John 6:36 and those in John 6:41-43. It is the same "ALL" in verses 37-39 of which those in verse 36 and verse 41-43 are no part of as Jesus identifies them who will not come to him. Coming is the consequence of being given (Jn. 6:37) and being drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:44) and ALL given come and NONE that come shall be lost (v. 39).

Nothing at all about "all sorts" and and nothing about "a FEW of all sorts" as the Calvinist model demands to eisegete into the text.

Any knowledable Greek student knows fully well that the anarthous construct of "pas" can mean "all classes/kinds." You are simply advertising your own ignorance.

John 6

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Why omit verse 41????? Because it would prove that verse 44 is His explanation to why they are murmurring against him and refusing to COME TO HIM! So simple, so clear that it takes willful refusal to acknowledge the obvious sense of the passage.





[

SIZE=3]Just as John quotes Christ in Rev 3 "I stand a the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in"
[/SIZE]

He is not talking to lost people. He is addressing the WHOLE CHURCH as their attitude and actions had shut him outside of the fellowship of this church. This illustrates perfectly how messed up your handling of scripture is.

 

[The Biblicist]

What I am ignoring is the eisgetical "inserts" that the Calvinist argument "needs" to insert.

For example???? What eisegetical inserts did I make with verses 37-39 in regard to the word "all"???? What eisgetical inserts did I make with the connective phrase first introduced in verse 39 with the "all" which also links verse 44 to the very same ones in verse 39??????? Please elaborate!

That convolution does not work in the text to undo the nature of the drawing of ALL.

So you think by merely making this assertion that assertion overthrows the contextual based arguments I presented?????????? Wow! Your method of exegesis is the only way to go, as you don't have to prove anything, disprove anything but just assert, assert and assert!

Christ does not say "ALL of the arbitrarily select FEW that I DRAW WILL come and will be raised up".

He did say "OF ALL" the father gave NONE would fail to come and "OF ALL" I SHALL LOSE NOTHING! That pretty well restricts the "all" to less than every human being ever born unless you believe in UNIVERSAL salvation??????

The sequence in John is God so So Loved the WORLD, and Draws ALL - and the fact that NONE (no note a single one no matter how many SORTS you insert) can come to him APART from that Drawing of ALL. And then comes that "qualified" part where Christ says that of those that DO hear and DO come to Him - he will raise them up on the last day.

Your reasoning falls apart as NONE "of all" given to the Son by the Father fail to "come" to Christ (v. 37)and NONE "of all" given to the Son shall be lost - v. 39. So again you are forced to teach universal salvation or admit the contextual use of "all" in verse 37-39 is limited to only those given by the Father to the Son.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said "I will draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32 - not merely Calvinism's arbitrarily select "few" of Matt 7.

And even by Calvinist standards the John 6 "Drawing" of mankind by God - enables all the choice in the world - that depravity disables.



Note even remotely.

Jesus did not say "I will draw ONE from every nation" or "some arbitrarily selected FEW of each nation" in John 12:32 he draws an unqualified "ALL".

Just as in John 16 a few chapters later "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" and in John 3 "God so loved the WORLD --- yes really".

The them in the book of John is consistently not Calvinism's arbitrary selection nor limited-gospel.

In John 12 Jesus did NOT say "Gentiles are unclean - I will draw SOME of the unclean Gentiles to me".

And I think we both know that.

Indeed not THE ALL - but the unqualified all. And not an imaginary insert of "All of THE people from each SORT of nation that are among the arbitrarily selected FEW in Calvinism's Gospel".

Nothing at all about "all sorts" and and nothing about "a FEW of all sorts" as the Calvinist model demands to eisegete into the text.

This is not simply "an other sheep" statement by Christ rather it is the John 3 "God so loved the WORLD -- yes really" statement that John is so happy to report.

For as John says in 1 John 4 "God sent Christ to be the Savior of the WORLD" -- not "The Savior of a few of all sorts of people in the world" as the Calvinist model demands to eisegete.

you are carefully avoiding the actual statements in John 6 because this is the only way Calvinism survives it.

This is NOT an argument about "unclean gentiles" as much as Calvinism may need to eisegete that into the text.

John 6

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.




The statement above applies to ALL -- the unqualified ALL of John 12:32. For you cannot eisegete in "only SOME from all sorts of people cannot come to me unless the Father DRAWS him".


Impossible to invoke the Calvinist eisegesis into John 6


Just as John quotes Christ in Rev 3 "I stand a the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in"



He does not say "if some arbitrarily select FEW of ALL sorts of people hear well then they have a shot at salvation".



And this is the result of John's statement in 1John 2:2 that Christ is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".


Calvinism does not survive 1John 2 or John 12:32 or 1John 4 or John 3:16... - or the writings of John in general.

1. The term "all" has already been contextually defined previously in a fuller context in John 6:37-44 and nothing you can say can change that.

The unqualified "all" in John 12:32 is defined as seen - unqualified.

And in John 6 again it is the world scope of ALL when Christ said 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: This is a scope of unqualified all EVEN by Calvinist standards to have absolutely no exceptions.

They reject him because they were not drawn to him by the Father

You state the hope whim and wish of Calvinism as IF it were stated in the text when the details show that no part of the text says "they reject him because the Father did not draw them".

Standing Christ's statement on its head is what Calvinism "needs" - but it is hard to get away with it.

Jumping out of one context into another context. The word "world" to a Jew, and he was talking to a Jewish scholar in John 3
and to Jews in John 16, can refer to "mankind" in general

Indeed it does. For He is the "atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" according to John in 1John 2:2.

John is writing the Gospel of John after he returns to Ephesus from exile in Patmos - he fully understand that God so loved the WORLD and not just "The world of jews" when he is writing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Just as John quotes Christ in Rev 3 "I stand a the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in"

God is not willing that ANY Should perish but that ALL should come to repentance thus as John teaching in 1John 4 God "sent his Son to be the Savior of the WORLD". When debating the Calvinist view we have to keep adding "yes really" to the end of each verse because the Calvinist argument is sure to try and downsize the Bible when it differs with the limited-gospel and arbitrary-select-few model of Calvinism.

He is not talking to lost people. He is addressing the WHOLE CHURCH

l

In Rev 3 - Christ is on the OUTSIDE knocking and the lost sinner is alone and on the inside - WITHOUT Christ.

"If ANYONE hear my voice AND open the door I WILL come in" == it is a personal 1-1 invitation to ALL to "ANYONE" who choose to open that door.

A very Arminian text - and one that Calvinism is sure to try to downsize.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Just as John quotes Christ in Rev 3 "I stand a the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in"

God is not willing that ANY Should perish but that ALL should come to repentance thus as John teaching in 1John 4 God "sent his Son to be the Savior of the WORLD". When debating the Calvinist view we have to keep adding "yes really" to the end of each verse because the Calvinist argument is sure to try and downsize the Bible when it differs with the limited-gospel and arbitrary-select-few model of Calvinism.




l

In Rev 3 - Christ is on the OUTSIDE knocking and the lost sinner is alone and on the inside - WITHOUT Christ.

"If ANYONE hear my voice AND open the door I WILL come in" == it is a personal 1-1 invitation to ALL to "ANYONE" who choose to open that door.

A very Arminian text - and one that Calvinism is sure to try to downsize.

in Christ,

Bob

This is an exercise of futility!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

This is an exercise of futility!

So, stop exercising.

After all, it was predestined that you would lose the argument, despite your torture of scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

This is an exercise of futility!

The details in scripture are not in favor of Calvinism. Certainly we can all agree on that.

Thus your task is to take one text at a time and downsize it - undo it's apparent teaching - so as to get Calvinism to "survive it".

That is all-uphill for you - all -day long.

At some point it pays to throw away the shovel and just accept what the Bible is saying no matter the fact that it will not help Calvinism to do so.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

So, stop exercising.

After all, it was predestined that you would lose the argument, despite your torture of scripture.

There is no argument to lose. When the very text states explicitly that Jesus is addressing His church in Revelation 3, but Bob keeps on denying it and insisting He is addressing the lost in spite of incontrovertable evidence He is addressing "the churches" and those who have "ears to hear" it is an exercise of futility to debate with anyone that blind.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


He does not "rebuke and chasten" lost people only His children. This letter is not addressed to lost people, but his church at Laodicea. He is not talking about salvation but restoring broken fellowship with saved people who he is rebuking and chastening. For Pete's sake, it is so clear that one has to be willuflly blind to keep on repeating the same falsehood over and over and over again and it is the same with his other proof texts JERKED out of context.

 

[The Biblicist]

The details in scripture are not in favor of Calvinism. Certainly we can all agree on that.

Thus your task is to take one text at a time and downsize it - undo it's apparent teaching - so as to get Calvinism to "survive it".

That is all-uphill for you - all -day long.

At some point it pays to throw away the shovel and just accept what the Bible is saying no matter the fact that it will not help Calvinism to do so.


in Christ,

Bob

The hills are not provided by scripture but by your abuse of scripture. You repeat the same THOROUGHLY DISPROVEN interpretations over and over again. It does not take too much common sense to see that revelation 3:19-20 is not addressed to lost people but to saved church members as the context is crystal clear.

Likewise, with John 6:37-39! It does not take much common sense to see that the "ALL" of this context is restricted to ONLY those the Father gave Christ and NONE else. He clearly states that "ALL" given do actually come to Christ (v. 37). That is undeniable if honesty is still a virtue. He clearly states that "OF ALL" which are given "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." Can't get it clearer than this and yet you keep on rejecting what is clearly stated. So it is an exercise of fultility to discuss ANYTHING with a person who won't acknowledge black and white. 100% who are given do come (v. 37) and 100% "of all" given NONE SHALL BE LOST - v. 39.

Hence, Christ has defined his meaning of "all" when it 5comes to those given and those COMING to Christ. Giving is the cause of coming. Hence, giving and drawing are inseparble as drawing is the cause of coming in verse 44. In verse 65 Christ repeats verse 44 and actually replaces "draw" with "give"!!! This is incontrovertible evidenc you are wrong. However, will you deal with the specifics??? No! YOu will play the part of a parrot and simply ignore the contextual based evidence and repeat your absolute perverted nonsense about this text. Hence, it is futile to reason with such a mind.