That is your opinion, pure imagination. Now, please document it. Document your "facts" if you have any, that the populace of the world was illiterate and Oral Traditional Teaching was the standard of communication. Give some authoritative documentation of what you just said, not just your opinion.
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The Problem with Oral Traditions
- Thread starter Dr. Walter
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Yes, it was Carson.
Let me tell you a few things that I remember discussing with Carson.
I remember our discussion about Origen.
I mentioned to him that Origen was a heretic even by the RCC standards. Some would consider him as the "father of Arianism."
Carson agreed. He (surprisingly) listed another half dozen or so other heresies that Origen believed, but that didn't seem to bother him.
One thing that Origen is noted for: he was the first one to introduce the method of allegorization as a way of interpreting the Bible. Before that time the Bible was always interpreted in a literal way. Augustine took from Origen and popularized allegory. The RCC has been using this method of interpretation ever since. Carson used this method of interpretation in his defense of Scriptures.
For example, Adam in the first Adam, and Christ is the second Adam. We agree. The Bible teaches that.
But Carson takes it farther. If the above truth is so, then Eve is the first Eve, then Mary is the second Eve. That allegorization or spiritualization is heresy. There is no "Mary" in the OT, save for a few prophecies such as Isaiah 7:14, "where a virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son." To claim that Eve is Mary is heresy. It is an unneeded allegorization. But this is the RCC method of interpretation--a method used to get all kinds of heresy into their church. When you allegorize Scripture, you can make it say anything you want.
He would take 1Cor.3:11-15, a passage that talks about the judgment seat of Christ, and allegorize it, claim that it was speaking of purgatory. That is nonsense. And again it is heresy. The Bible tells us it is the judgement seat of Christ. When you allegorize Scripture you can make it say anything you want it to say. He sent me a paper on Creation. I still have it. There is a lot of allegory in it.
The entire RCC system is a system that is based after the Levitical system of the OT. That is why the priests are still standing at the altar making offerings. When Jesus made his sacrifice he sat down at the right hand of God, indicating that the sacrifice was now complete, and no more sacrifice had to be made.
Like the OT system the people had to go to the priests and through sacrifices make confession of sin. The RCC eliminates the sacrifice but carries on with the confession of sin, and adds penance on to the end. This is all an allegory of the Levitical system of the OT.
In the Book of Hebrews there were believers that wanted to go back to such a system. The key word is "better". We have something "better." The new covenant is better than the old. We have Christ who forgave all of our sins: past, present and future at the cross. All we have to do is accept it on the basis of what he did. It is better than the old. We have a better high priest. The priests of the Old Testament stood daily ministering at the altar. Our high priest gave himself as a ransom for all, and then sat down at the right hand of throne of God. In the OT they died and had to be replaced. In the NT Jesus Christ is the same: yesterday, today and forever. He is eternal and ever lives to make intercession for us.
Why would anyone want to go back to an old system when we have Christ, and his new covenant. This is what the Catholics (like those in the OT) do not have. They have allegory, that is all.
The blasphemous statement made by a bishop in the U.S., that I posted in the other thread says it all:
"The Church (RCC) is Jesus. No, the RCC is an organization full of heresy.
Jesus is the One that can save. He alone saves apart from any church.
I have already done that. Don't you ever read below the signature line of Biblicist. That is all the proof you need right there: Isa.8:20; Acts 17:11. Study those out for yourself. Sola Scriptura is not man made any more than the trinity is man made. Deny them both if you will. They are both taught in the Word of God. Neither are one are Protestant; both are "Biblical." It isn't a tradition of any sort, much less "of man."
Actually you didn't know, because I wasn't. But since you have we will have a brief look at it. The main truth it teaches is that all Scripture is inspired of God. Someday you will stand before a holy and just God, and he will ask you if you believed and acted on His Holy and inspired Word? Woe to the person who denies that the Word of God is not inspired, and that believes there is another source that is, or is just as inspired. I would not like to be that person standing in front of God.
It is the inspired Word of God. That is what is important.
Now, is it used for our final authority in all matters of faith and practice?
What does the Scripture say on this? First the OT.
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:20)
--It was their standard, their measuring stick, their way of determining right from wrong. It was their final authority in all things. If it wasn't according to this book, it was because they had no light. Period!
You have to imagine this scene:
And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel. (Nehemiah 8:1)
And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law. (Nehemiah 8:3)
And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; (Nehemiah 8:4)
And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people
and when he opened it, all the people stood up: (Nehemiah 8:5)So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. (Nehemiah 8:8)
--Ezra stood on a pulpit and read the book of the law to the people of Israel. He did so from morning to mid-day, and all the while the entire nation stood to hear it. While Ezra read he expounded the Word--"gave sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
--He did this because the Word of God was their authority, their only authority. By it they lived; by it they died.
If a prophet prophesied among them and it was not according to the Word of God, he was put to death.
If there was a witch among them she was put to death, according to the Word of God.
--Everything was done according to the Word of God. It was their sole authority in all things of doctrine and practice.
--When they didn't do according to the Word of God, they were severely judged. They ended up going into captivity because of it.
Hosea's indictment upon them:
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. (Hosea 4:6)
--They were being destroyed because they had ignored God's Word--their standard, their only standard of faith and practice. They had forgotten God's law, and God would forget their children.
God's Word is the only rule of faith and order. There is none other
Now in the NT
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)
--Paul had started many churches. He was persecuted at Thssalonica. But now he comes to Berea. He commends the believers at Berea. Why? Because they didn't take his word at face value. They went to their homes and studied their Scripture (OT) to see if the things that he was preaching was true. The Bible was their only rule of faith and practice. As you can see from the above Scriptures, they had learned that principle well from the OT. They had to be sure that Paul was preaching the truth. If he wasn't he would be under condemnation and worthy of being stoned. But they found in the OT, that he was preaching the truth. Therefore they were more noble than those of Thessalonica. This is the great example of sola scriptura in action.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:12)
--At the Great White Throne Judgment, the books (plural) will be opened. What books?? The Book of Life, and no doubt God's book, the Bible. It is the one that condemns a person for their actions. It is our rule of faith and practice. Many will stand there in condemnation of the things written in the Word of God.
I would hate to be that person.
How important is the Word of God?
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18-19)
--Don't add to it (the apocrypha); don't take away from it.
It is our only authority; our sole guide; our final authority of faith and practice. This is a serious warning to any who should tamper with the Word of God.
Gup20
Active Member
There are a lot of assumptions in this statement. It would be a grand mistake to think that peoples from ancient times were unintelligent. In fact, there is ample evidence that peoples of ancient days were orders of magnitude more intelligent than the peoples of today's modern world. To this day, many ancient marvels of engineering surpass what we can do today even with our modern equipment. For example, see this article: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v20/n2/mystery-of-ancient-man
Biologically speaking we've been sold a bill of goods with evolution. It's mindset of gradual building of intelligence over time has clouded our reasoning... even in the church. But consider - God created Adam "perfect." He declared Adam "very good." God himself gave Adam his intellect. Adam did not have to learn how to walk and talk. Since the fall, when sin and death entered the world, chaos in the human genome has been increasing. In fact, mankind are devolving, not evolving. We are getting less and less healthy, strong, and intelligent. With each generation, mutations (copying mistakes) build up in our genomes. But going back to Adam's time you would expect to find fewer and fewer genetic mistakes and mutations until you have a perfect DNA in Adam with no mistakes and everything working in perfect order. This is why it was ok for siblings to marry in the original design. Their children did not have retardation or genetic issues because there were no flaws to be expressed. Today, close relations can't reproduce because people in the same family have all the same genetic deficiencies and so all of those deficiencies get expressed if close relations have offspring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
That is your opinion, pure imagination. Now, please document it. Document your "facts" if you have any, that the populace of the world was illiterate and Oral Traditional Teaching was the standard of communication. Give some authoritative documentation of what you just said, not just your opinion.
The following is especially for you DHK and also Gup20- As I wrote; it was "Oral Apostolic/Successor Communication " not the Holy" Bible Alone" man-made [ Protestant } theory.
Encyclopedia—illiteracy
History
Throughout most of history most people have been illiterate. In feudal society, for example, the ability to read and write was of value only to the clergy and aristocracy. The first known reference to “literate laymen” did not appear until the end of the 14th cent. Illiteracy was not seen as a problem until after the invention of printing in the 15th cent. The first significant decline in illiteracy came with the Reformation, when translation of the Bible into the vernacular became widespread and Protestant converts were taught to read it. Revolutionary political movements from the 18th to the 20th cent. generally included an attack on illiteracy as one of their goals, with the former Soviet Union, China, and Cuba being among the most successful in the 20th cent.
Sections in this article:
•Introduction
•Definition of Illiteracy
•World Illiteracy Rates
•Combating Illiteracy
•History
•Bibliography
The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2007, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.
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Read more: illiteracy: History — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/societ...#ixzz1fmle5FFp
Originally Posted by DHK
That is your opinion, pure imagination. Now, please document it. Document your "facts" if you have any, that the populace of the world was illiterate and Oral Traditional Teaching was the standard of communication. Give some authoritative documentation of what you just said, not just your opinion.
The following is especially for you DHK and also Gup20- As I wrote; it was "Oral Apostolic/Successor Communication " not the Holy" Bible Alone" man-made [ Protestant } theory.
Encyclopedia—illiteracy
History
Throughout most of history most people have been illiterate. In feudal society, for example, the ability to read and write was of value only to the clergy and aristocracy. The first known reference to “literate laymen” did not appear until the end of the 14th cent. Illiteracy was not seen as a problem until after the invention of printing in the 15th cent. The first significant decline in illiteracy came with the Reformation, when translation of the Bible into the vernacular became widespread and Protestant converts were taught to read it. Revolutionary political movements from the 18th to the 20th cent. generally included an attack on illiteracy as one of their goals, with the former Soviet Union, China, and Cuba being among the most successful in the 20th cent.
Sections in this article:
•Introduction
•Definition of Illiteracy
•World Illiteracy Rates
•Combating Illiteracy
•History
•Bibliography
The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2007, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.
CitePrintEmailHotWordsBookmark Add bookmark
Add to del.icio.us
Digg It!
Add to Reddit
Read more: illiteracy: History — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/societ...#ixzz1fmle5FFp
Encyclopedia—illiteracy- to show that Oral Apostolic Traditional Teaching method was used.
Read more: illiteracy: History — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/societ...#ixzz1fmle5FFp
Read more: illiteracy: History — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/societ...#ixzz1fmle5FFp
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The problem with your evidence is that it is general and not specific. Why is that a problem? It is problem because there are some cultures that placed a higher premium on literacy than others. Israel was one of those cultures because God had given it a written revelation. Egypt, Babylon, Greece and Rome were also cultures that placed a higher premium on literacy.
However, each of these literate cultures were surrounded by illiterate cultures that fit your GENERAL criteria.
See for evidence of literacy in Ancient Israel- http://danielomcclellan.wordpress.c...israel-epigraphic-evidence-from-the-iron-age/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeside
Pauls method ,as well as all apostles/successors , of teaching was ; ' I preach " notice it is preached not read , the vast majority of new converts were illiterate, so the only way to convey the message of the "Good News" was by a method called Apostolic Oral Teaching/Tradition , you won't find it explained in the Bible anymore than the word Trinity or Bible, but accept it , because that is a true fact.
Mt 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mt 21:16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mr 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
Mr 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
Mr 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Lu 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Lu 6:3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
Joh 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
Ac 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Ac 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Ac 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Ac 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.Ac 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
Ac 23:34 And when the governor had read the letter, he asked of what province he was. And when he understood that he was of Cilicia;
2Co 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
The Biblicist, tell me , who was doing the "reading " back then? It sure wasn't the illiterate people found outside of the following countries [ Egypt, Babylon, Greece,& Rome ] that you mentioned in your last post, evanelization continued in other parts of the world, in case you forgot, where illiteracy was most prevalent with it's people, and quess how it was administered to these people? I'll tell you how, it was communicated to them by "ORAL Apostolic Teaching Tradition. One more note, and that is the reason for those beautiful stained -glass windows with the etchings of the life of Jesus found in the Catholic Churches and Cathedrals was for the benefit of the illiterate.
Here is how the Catholic Church teaches about the subject;
The Bereans, we’re told, were mainly Jews (and some Greeks), not Christians, and they even had a Jewish synagogue. The word they received was Paul’s teaching about Jesus?that same teaching which he sums up in his first letter to the Corinthians, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). The scriptures mentioned here by Paul are the same scriptures which the Bereans examined?the Old Testament scriptures. These were the only scriptures of the day, as no New Testament Scripture existed at the time. Most of the New Testament had not yet been written and what had been written had not yet been canonized so as to attain the status of Scripture. What we see here is a group of people being taught about Christianity by Paul prior to the existence of the New Testament. They eagerly listened to Paul while examining the Old Testament Scripture.
This all makes sense when we understand this event in its historical context. The event occurred during Paul’s second missionary journey. On his journeys Paul taught the good news of Christianity as Jesus had commissioned him to do. As a Jewish convert to Christianity himself, he knew Jewish Scripture well and he knew that it prophesied about Jesus. He undoubtedly explained this Scripture to enlighten other Jews about the truth of Christianity. These Jews would have to examine their Old Testament Scripture to see if what Paul was saying made sense. It did, and many Jews, including some of the Bereans, became Christians.
Not of Human Origin
Paul’s method was one of the ways Christianity was first taught. And Paul’s teaching is an example of what the Catholic Church calls Sacred Tradition.
This is how the Church Christ founded explains it-
The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Here is how the Catholic Church teaches about the subject;
The Bereans, we’re told, were mainly Jews (and some Greeks), not Christians, and they even had a Jewish synagogue. The word they received was Paul’s teaching about Jesus?that same teaching which he sums up in his first letter to the Corinthians, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). The scriptures mentioned here by Paul are the same scriptures which the Bereans examined?the Old Testament scriptures. These were the only scriptures of the day, as no New Testament Scripture existed at the time. Most of the New Testament had not yet been written and what had been written had not yet been canonized so as to attain the status of Scripture. What we see here is a group of people being taught about Christianity by Paul prior to the existence of the New Testament. They eagerly listened to Paul while examining the Old Testament Scripture.
This all makes sense when we understand this event in its historical context. The event occurred during Paul’s second missionary journey. On his journeys Paul taught the good news of Christianity as Jesus had commissioned him to do. As a Jewish convert to Christianity himself, he knew Jewish Scripture well and he knew that it prophesied about Jesus. He undoubtedly explained this Scripture to enlighten other Jews about the truth of Christianity. These Jews would have to examine their Old Testament Scripture to see if what Paul was saying made sense. It did, and many Jews, including some of the Bereans, became Christians.
Not of Human Origin
Paul’s method was one of the ways Christianity was first taught. And Paul’s teaching is an example of what the Catholic Church calls Sacred Tradition.
This is how the Church Christ founded explains it-
The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Jesus never received formal theological training except in the synogues as was all Jewish children. Yet, he was able to READ and it is said it was his "custom" and he was only twelve years of age.
John and Peter never received formal theological training but both wrote Greek letters.
The Jewish children were all trained to read and write at home and in the synogues.
WOW, The Biblicist , what a complete evasive move on your part. I explained it all in my last post and you completely jumped to the reading abilities of Jesus and His Apostles. You are so accustomed to these tactics that you think that people can't see right through your smoke-screen. You undermined the Teaching Method of Jesus . Jesus was the "Teacher with Authority' and He made His Apostles 'teachers with Authority " and then they to their successors as per command/instructions from Jesus.
You Biblicist are using under-handed ways of avoiding the true fact that Jesus and His Apostles, and all of their successors used and are still using Christ's Oral Teaching Method and since the canonization of the Holy Bible , they are using both the Oral Apostolic Teaching Method founded and promoted by Jesus along with the Holy Bible , both are needed to understand the "Fullness of the Christian Faith' . One checks the other. Everything out of Sacred Holy Apostolic Teaching must agree with Holy Scripture and the correct way of interpreting the Bible most naturally correspond with the correct way it was taught by Jesus to His Apostles , that is the only way that true Christians that really want to understand the "Fullness of the Christian Faith "as per Jesus, will have it, found only in the Holy Bible along with understanding that it is also verified with Christ's Holy Apostolic Traditional Teaching Method.
The great majority of the world was illiterate and they had to be taught by the Oral Teaching Method used by Jesus as well as by all of his future teachers . Nobody can correctly interpret the Holy Bible unless one also interprets the Bible as it was intended to be interpreted. There is only ONE True Interpretation , just One.There are now over 30,00 different interpretations and every one of them wrong. As with the number of different churches, only One is the True Church and that One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church has the One True Holy Interpretation, and it was and will forever be protected by the promise of Jesus . Matt. 16 v 18.Mere men may invent as many churches with their off-shoot KJV cults, along with as many different interpretations ,but only One is True and formed by Jesus back then.
The Jews taught their children to read and write. Jesus did not teach his disciples to read and write.
There is no scripture that supports your theories. There are no scriptures that teach that the disciples of the Apostles would be the vehicles to perpetuate Apostolic oral tradition. Zero! Zilch Nada!
You can bloviate hot air but provide no Biblical foundation or substance for your hot air.
Biblicist, try these verses on for size -- " So, then , brethren, stand firm, and hold the teachings that you have learned , whether by word or by letter of ours ' [ 2 Thess. 2: 15 ] and [ John 20:30 ]
Before the Catholic Guttenberg invented his printing press all the Teachings of Jesus [ with the exception of the Clergy and members of the royal families of the world] all the Teachings were accomplished by 'oral teaching' in the very same custom/tradition that Jesus taught His Apostles, and they in turn verbally taught others and so forth and so on . You Biblicist will not accept that truth of Christian history because you have too many wordly things to lose by accepting it. False pride and ego are just two of the reasons. Your soul is more important than any attachments with this world.
Why can't you accept the truth and that being that no Christian believed [ before the Catholic Guttenberg printed the bible in the vernacular] in the Bible Alone as the sole rule of Faith, even after the Catholic Guttenberg printed those Bibles most people still couldn't read and besides most people couldn't afford the price for a Bible. By your reasoning all Christians that never possessed nor had access to a personal bible were doomed.
Sola Scriptura is an outright invention of mere- protesting men . Protesting against God's way of doing things. Luke 10 :16
I have already answered every single solitary text you have presented including these two. YOUR BANKRUPT for proof texts. You can provide scriptures that promise that the Holy Spirit will bring back to the Apostles memory the things of Christ but you cannot find any text that makes this promise to their disciples concerning what the apostles orally taught them.
You can find scriptures that teach what they orally spoke to their disciples was God's Word but you cannot find any scripture that promises their disciples would perpetuate what they heard as the Oral Tradition.
John 20:30 simply states that Jesus said and did more than what John recorded or anyone could record - Hence, more than anyone could remember too! But no promise to preserve it by oral tradition through the disciples of the apostles!!!! BANKRUPT as a proof text
2 Thessalonians 2:15 simply confirms what they ORAL delivered was God's Word as much as what they wrote was God's Word! However, no promise that what they orally delivered would be preserved through their disciples as ORAL TRADITION from one generation to the next!! BANKRUPT as a proof text.
Luke 10:16 is BANKRUPT as a proof text for your erroneous theory as says those who do not "hear YOU" not "hear YOUR DISCIPLES." Another BANKRUPT proof text!!!!!
You are teaching a false doctrine that originates from men not from God - Period!
WestminsterMan
New Member
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I dare you to read Romans 16; 17-18 and then tell me that the doctrine wasn't intact then and not as you believe it to be refreshed by your mere man inventors until 1400 years after Jesus already established His Doctrine to His Church. [ Church and Doctrine , "Then " ] Regardless if you think that it wasn't the Catholic Church that Jesus made a promise to or not , Jesus still certainly promised that Church from any doctrinal error as found in Matt. 16 : 15-19. In this verse of Matt. 18: 15-18 you can almost hear the note of amazement in Jesus' voice when He said : , " If he refuses to listen even to the Church ,... " [ implying that for someone to ignore [ as in ignorance ] the Church - His One True Church - would be the height of stupidity and foolishness. Why do you ???
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WestminsterMan
New Member
Can you prove that?
Again... prove that accusation.
You left out scripture. How convenient...
I hate to say it, but you sound alot like the good doc. Hmmm.... Anyway - that's sheer unadulterated (and bigoted, hateful, etc) opinion and nothing more. Unless, of course, you can prove any of that.
If you accept the New Testament canon then, by tacit approval, you are accepting the authority of the people who decided which books would be included in said canon - you know - the ones you just got through calling "... Anti-Biblical, anti-Prophet, Anti-Christ..." - you know - the Catholic Church?
Oh lordy... not that tripe again... pleeeeease. OK. So, give me the numbers per country/region that constitute the "millions" murdered by the "evil" RCC. Chances are that those numbers will exceed the populations at the time. But hey, who cares about facts as long as one can bash the Catholics.
To be a "vicar "means to be a representative. Don't you, by your own Christian life, represent Christ? To be a Christian means to be a little Christ. Are you, buy your Christian life a little Christ? Ultimately, they have Apostolic authority handed down from Christ himself through Peter, etc.
And just where did you get the skewed idea that Popes are perfect? They are not and are only kept from error by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is interesting that none of the terrible Popes in history ever guided the Church into error.
I hate to break it to you but Rome is a city - the Vatican is the center of the Catholic Church.
WM
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The only historical evidence or Bibical interpretations a devout Roman Catholic will accept is what Rome approves. Everything else is tarnished history and inaccurate interpretations.
Wouldn't make any difference if I had included it. However, just for your sake:
Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. {tempt: or, try, or, put to trial, or, proof}
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mt 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mt 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
etc., etc., etc.,
. No amount of evidence would be credible to a devout Roman Catholic. He would either just dismiss it or reinterpret it.
Tertullian spoke of the "whole volume" of apostolic Scripture that proved Marcion had perverted the scriptures in his canon and said that no one could ADD or SUBTRACT to that "whole volume." He argued that this "WHOLE VOLUME" existed before 140 AD (time of marcion's canon) and none could ADD t it and he wrote this about 200 AD. All apostolic scriptures were written and among the churches prior to 100 A.D. There were translations prior to 150 A.D. The debate over the FEW books were not widespread but primarily in congregations going apostate and ultimately joining a STATE CHURCH union (beginning of Roman Catholicism) as there is no STATE CHURCH union in the New Testament apart from Revelation 17-18.
What a joke! Look at your argument. Do you call yourself the Vicar of Christ? Do all Christians claim the title "Vicar" of Christ? As I recall the name "Christian" can be found in Scripture but where is any elder in Scripture ever called a "vicar"??????
It certainly reveals the spirit directing the leadership of Catholicism by their selection of immoral and ungodly "vicars"! You can know them by their fruits.
- Rom. 17:18
- Status