The Puritians

[Van]

A snippet from the internet:

The first Baptist churches were formed by English-speakers in Holland (1609-1612). They believed, as did Martin Luther, that believers were capable of reading and interpreting the Bible on their own. The Baptists separated from the Church of England because they believed church membership should be voluntary and that only believers should be baptized. They rejected the parish structure of the Church of England where people were "born" into the church and baptized as infants. John Smyth led the first congregation; Thomas Helwys traveled back to England the founded the first Baptist church there in 1612. The first Baptist church in North America was established by Roger Williams in what today is Providence, Rhode Island; soon thereafter, John Clarke founded a Baptist church in Newport, R.I.​

 

[kyredneck]

It is obviously silly that there is an unbroken line from new testament times.

ICYDK, it's called 'Landmarkism', and it's not a new phenomena. Matthew 3:9

 

[Walter]

ICYDK, it's called 'Landmarkism', and it's not a new phenomena. Matthew 3:9

'The Trail of Blood' has been completely debunked.
Thankfully intellectually honest Baptists, such as James McGoldrick who was once himself a believer in Baptist successionism are conceding that this “trail of blood” view is, frankly, bogus. McGoldrick writes:

'Extensive graduate study and independent investigation of church history has, however, convinced [the author] that the view he once held so dear has not been, and cannot be, verified. On the contrary, surviving primary documents render the successionist view untenable. . . . Although free church groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the 17th century in Holland and England. They are Protestants, heirs of the reformers.' (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History [1994], 1–2)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Our Church loves the Puritans. We go through a lot of Puritan study books in our small groups. We adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which is a Baptist version of the Savoy Declaration which Puritans largely adhered to.

What I know about them is they took their faith very seriously, and were Post-Millennial Theonomists and Paedobaptists. A lot of modern Christians think they're "legalists" because they largely follow what God's Word says and didn't try to fit it into their modern times.

1. They did not find slavery sinful
2. They actually believed women were to be silent in Church, as it the Apostle Paul says.
3. They believed men were heads of households and had spiritual authority and responsibility for their family.
4. They believed the Sabbath was still applicable and treated the Lord's Day as the Lord's Day.
5. They took Biblical education of their children seriously
6. They fenced the Lord's Supper table
7. Strong view of Church Membership and Church Member Responsibility - I.E affirming doctrine
8. Emphasis on perseverance

Our Church loves the Puritans. We go through a lot of Puritan study books in our small groups. We adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which is a Baptist version of the Savoy Declaration which Puritans largely adhered to.

What I know about them is they took their faith very seriously, and were Post-Millennial Theonomists and Paedobaptists. A lot of modern Christians think they're "legalists" because they largely follow what God's Word says and didn't try to fit it into their modern times.

1. They did not find slavery sinful
2. They actually believed women were to be silent in Church, as it the Apostle Paul says.
3. They believed men were heads of households and had spiritual authority and responsibility for their family.
4. They believed the Sabbath was still applicable and treated the Lord's Day as the Lord's Day.
5. They took Biblical education of their children seriously
6. They fenced the Lord's Supper table
7. Strong view of Church Membership and Church Member Responsibility - I.E affirming doctrine
8. Emphasis on perseverance

Does your church celebrate Christmas and Easter?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Our Church loves the Puritans. We go through a lot of Puritan study books in our small groups. We adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which is a Baptist version of the Savoy Declaration which Puritans largely adhered to.

Isn’t it is a mistake to take any creed from a former time and use it as a canon for orthodoxy today?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

'The Trail of Blood' has been completely debunked.
Thankfully intellectually honest Baptists, such as James McGoldrick who was once himself a believer in Baptist successionism are conceding that this “trail of blood” view is, frankly, bogus. McGoldrick writes:

'Extensive graduate study and independent investigation of church history has, however, convinced [the author] that the view he once held so dear has not been, and cannot be, verified. On the contrary, surviving primary documents render the successionist view untenable. . . . Although free church groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the 17th century in Holland and England. They are Protestants, heirs of the reformers.' (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History [1994], 1–2)

Who is James McGoldrick?

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

Does your church celebrate Christmas and Easter?

As a Church that day is treated no different than any other Lord's Day, so at the Church level we don't. No special preaching on a special topic, no special meal, no special timing changes, etc, just a normal Sunday.

Church members are free to go home and have their separate celebration, which most members do. Even that though would have been forbidden by some of the Puritans.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

Isn’t it is a mistake to take any creed from a former time and use it as a canon for orthodoxy today?

No, I don't think the Bible, nor doctrine pulled from the Bible changes due to differences in culture.

I agree with 90-95% of the 1689 London Baptist Confession and think it is an excellent Confession to base Church doctrine on.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Does your church celebrate Christmas and Easter?

No, I don't think the Bible, nor doctrine pulled from the Bible changes due to differences in culture.

I agree with 90-95% of the 1689 London Baptist Confession and think it is an excellent Confession to base Church doctrine on.

I find it interesting that Landmarkers, Reformed Baptists, Independent Missionary Baptists, the Founders in the Southern Baptist Convention, Sovereign Grace Baptists, Absoluters, and many others all lay claim to the 1689 as a document that supports their beliefs! It must truly be the ecumenical document of choice for Calvinistic churches. Now from my prospective, any ship that requires as many patches to keep it afloat as the 1689 does not represent a sea-worthy vessel. I am skeptical of the attempt to make it or any creedal statement the benchmark of orthodoxy. We Primitive Baptists are probably the only Christian fraternity among Baptists that rely on Bible only.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

I find that a Church adhering to a Confession acts as an in-depth Statement of faith and lets me quickly know if they're within the general realm of orthodoxy.

If I see a Presbyterian Church that agrees with the Westminster confession for example then I know that it's within the realm of Orthodoxy.

If I see a Primitive Baptist Church that has no kind of confession or statement of faith, just the Bible, then I have to do some deep digging to see what exactly they believe. Primitive Baptists range from Primitive Baptist Universalists to ultra Hard-shell and everything in-between.

Some SBCs will show support for certain Baptist Faith and Messages of certain years. That lets me know how "woke" that particular Church is. Adhering to the BFM of 2000 is a vast difference from adhering to one from say 2020.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I as a Primitive Baptist do not belong to convention nor do I have a specific credinal outline and have no ruling body. There is no scriptural authority for this. The New Testament standard for each church is that it is an independent church, answerable only to her Head, which is Christ (Ephesians 5:23).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I find that a Church adhering to a Confession acts as an in-depth Statement of faith and lets me quickly know if they're within the general realm of orthodoxy.

If I see a Presbyterian Church that agrees with the Westminster confession for example then I know that it's within the realm of Orthodoxy.

If I see a Primitive Baptist Church that has no kind of confession or statement of faith, just the Bible, then I have to do some deep digging to see what exactly they believe. Primitive Baptists range from Primitive Baptist Universalists to ultra Hard-shell and everything in-between.

Some SBCs will show support for certain Baptist Faith and Messages of certain years. That lets me know how "woke" that particular Church is. Adhering to the BFM of 2000 is a vast difference from adhering to one from say 2020.

There is no deep dive… merely a evaluation of the Statement of Faith … generally posted on the internet.

Also how can you state that any Presbyterian church is in the realm of orthodoxy? Do any Baptise scripturally? No they Infant Baptise to wash away the Sins of Adam before the child dies… and it is considered a must sacrament.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

There is no deep dive… merely a evaluation of the Statement of Faith … generally posted on the internet.

I've not seen Statements of Faith generally contain information such as:
-Is the 4th Commandment still applicable today?
-What is the Church's teaching on infants that die? Do they go to Heaven?
-What is the Church position on deaconesses
-Is Election based on God's selection alone, or a combination of man and God, or solely man?
-Does the Church adhere to Sphere Sovereignty or some other delineation of the authority of God's Institutions
Etc

Attaching a Church to a confession will typically answers all of the above questions in greater detail than a statement of faith ever could. Perhaps in your area those items are covered by a statement of faith on a website.

In my area most Churches don't have websites, and those that do have websites don't cover such in-depth topics on their Statement of Faith. I don't think adhering to a confession is mandatory, but it sure makes it clear where a given Church stands and what they teach.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I've not seen Statements of Faith generally contain information such as:
-Is the 4th Commandment still applicable today?
-What is the Church's teaching on infants that die? Do they go to Heaven?
-What is the Church position on deaconesses
-Is Election based on God's selection alone, or a combination of man and God, or solely man?
-Does the Church adhere to Sphere Sovereignty or some other delineation of the authority of God's Institutions
Etc

Attaching a Church to a confession will typically answers all of the above questions in greater detail than a statement of faith ever could. Perhaps in your area those items are covered by a statement of faith on a website.

In my area most Churches don't have websites, and those that do have websites don't cover such in-depth topics on their Statement of Faith. I don't think adhering to a confession is mandatory, but it sure makes it clear where a given Church stands and what they teach.

Here is the Statement of Faith taken from the Winter Garden PB church in Florida. The Elder is always there for questions… he is both direct and sincere. We are not a complicated people … everything is transparent. Plus there is nothing woke here.

 

[rockytopva]

Is anyone interested in purity here in 2023?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here is the Statement of Faith taken from the Winter Garden PB church in Florida. The Elder is always there for questions… he is both direct and sincere. We are not a complicated people … everything is transparent. Plus there is nothing woke here.

Winter Garden Primitive Baptist Church - Home

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is anyone interested in purity here in 2023?

Yea, Jesus

 

[Walter]

Who is James McGoldrick?

Baptist historian that once adamantly believed that Baptists could be traced back to the Early Church. He did extensive studies in which he concluded that not one of the churches which are identified as being Baptistic in polity, faith and order in the Early Church were in anyway close to being that. He concluded that Baptists are a product of the Reformation.

 

[Salty]

I as a Primitive Baptist do not belong to convention nor do I have a specific credinal outline and have no ruling body. There is no scriptural authority for this. The New Testament standard for each church is that it is an independent church, answerable only to her Head, which is Christ (Ephesians 5:23).

And "Southern Baptist" churches are 100% independent! Yes, our church is in friendly cooperation with the SBC. But they have absolutely no control over our church. The ONLY action the SBC can take is to dis-fellowship a church. The SBC does NOT tell us what literature to use, what missionaries we must support - a requirement to send reports in, and act. Our church does support the SBC cooperative program. But we also support a non-SBC missionary - as well as other non-SBC ministries. The SBC has published the BF&M (Baptist Faith & Message) Our church does agree with most of it - but there are a couple things we do not subscribe to. And as with the Primitive Bap- we are answerable only to Christ!

 

[Salty]

fin Adhering to the BFM of 2000 is a vast difference from adhering to one from say 2020.

Can you provide a link to the 2020 BF & M?