The PURPOSE-DRIVEN Church

[Griffdog]

I certainly recognize business principles in the book, including TQM. But I think this is a good thing to be sure, since most pastors (generalizing here) have a complete lack of management and interpersonal skills. This book is NOT a book on what to preach, but a strategy for establishing a process of what you're trying to accomplish.

To me, PD is about using the correct weapon for a specific target. Most churches I would surmise use a shotgun approach for everyone, where taking purposes and attaching them to people would probably would be more effective.

If you want a book on preaching, there are stronger ones out there. This is not the purpose of the book! This is about making sure you have a reason you exist, then targeting what you do to those reasons. THAT is ground-breaking, since I would bet that 75%+ of the people in this forum can't formally enunciate why their church exists. And if the can - how many of the deacons/elders/members really know it - and more importantly LIVE it?

Josh

 

[Griffdog]

((??))

Apparently this question was so utterly groundbreaking that no one dares respond to it?

Josh

 

[Jeremiah]

Originally posted by Griffdog:
I certainly recognize business principles in the book, including TQM. But I think this is a good thing to be sure, since most pastors (generalizing here) have a complete lack of management and interpersonal skills.

I think you are keying in on a very important concept for our churches today. Our Church just crossed the "little home town church image" when we built our new building and because of growth had to implement policy. We have had mixed result because our pastor lacks simple buisness skills to help with "managment" and organization of the church.

Thankfully our pastor recognises that and our associate pastor was hired because he CAN organize and preach. Although our associate Pastor is called to preach his primary calling is his ability to organize and put practical business principles in place.

This book is NOT a book on what to preach, but a strategy for establishing a process of what you're trying to accomplish.

I feel like the book inspired me to look at what I preach, to take another step down the road. God's work is the result. The new found organization skills and practicle managment makes it easier for one to "see" God's working.

To me, PD is about using the correct weapon for a specific target. Most churches I would surmise use a shotgun approach for everyone, where taking purposes and attaching them to people would probably would be more effective.

As long as you load your shotgun with God's Word

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

It is much more effective to point the shotgun in the right direction.

Even if you read the book and spit out any part that doesn't agree with you, there are many points and applications that can be made to any church of any size.

That was my $0.02

 

[Pastork]

Griffdog,

The common sense idea that the Church should understand its purpose in the world in order to fulfil it is hardly "ground breaking". The N.T., e.g., has a great deal to say about the purpose of the Church in the world and the importance of each believer using his/her gifts to fulfil that purpose. We hardly need to learn "business principles" in order to understand such things. You have stated that you think that a book with "business principles" is "a good thing to be sure, since most pastors (generalizing here) have a complete lack of management and interpersonal skills." Supposing, for the moment, that your generalization is accurate, I would argue that the answer is not to turn to the world of business to correct the problem. Rather, it would be to be more careful about who we accept into pastoral ministry, making sure that we demand and teach Biblical standards. But here I would observe that, although pastors are to have "management" ability, the Bible does not use the analogy of "business" management to picture what the pastoral ideal should be. For example, when Paul lists pastoral qualifications in 1Tim.3, he says that a potential pastor must be "one who rules [i.e. directs, manages-( proistemi ) ] his own house well" (vs.4). The ability to manage one's own household, not a business, is that which makes for the ideal pastor. The Church is viewed here as a family, not a business. If you disagree, then I would ask for the Biblical passages which teach that we should view the Church primarily in business terms and seek to run it more like a business.

I would also like to say that I take exception to your uncharitable generalization that "most pastors... have a complete lack of management and interpersonal skills." I have not found this to be the case in my own experience. Perhaps I haven't been judging such capabilities through the same lense, though, namely in terms of what makes good "business" sense. I also take exception to your equally uncharitable assumption concerning the people in this forum. You have said, "I would bet that 75%+ of the people in this forum can't formally enunciate why their church exists. And if they can - how many of the deacons/elders/members really know it - and more importantly LIVE it?" My experience with God's people has been that they usually do have a good, basic understanding of why their church exists, and when they don't, I have not found that the answer is to get them to study some good literature on "business" principles. Rather, they need to be taught more clearly what the Bible says about the nature and purpose of the Church. And one of the first things this will entail is getting them to see that - whatever else the Church may be - it is most definitely not a business.

Pastork

[ December 04, 2002, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Pastork ]

 

[Don]

Why is my church here? Matthew 28:19

Vision is hardly a new concept; "where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18).

The one thing that Warren does well in "The Purpose-Driven Church" is talking about being a leader/manager; the one thing that he misses talking about this concept is the leader/manager's relationship with the people he's leading/managing.

For instance, Warren points out that the people have to have a purpose, and how to tell them what that purpose is; but doesn't talk much, if at all, about ensuring, or how to ensure, that the people understand their part in the purpose. TQM refers to it as "buy in." Simply put, yeah, it's great that my pastor has a Matthew 28:19 vision; but how does the pastor convey to each individual member of the flock their importance and position and role in that Matthew 28:19 vision? That's where I see problems with Warren's book.

The emphasis should not be on how to get people in; it should be on how to disciple them.

To be fair and honest, I've known one or two pastors that NEED to read this book, just I know quite a few others that don't.

[ December 04, 2002, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[All about Grace]

Warren points out that the people have to have a purpose, and how to tell them what that purpose is; but doesn't talk much, if at all, about ensuring, or how to ensure, that the people understand their part in the purpose.

Read his new book.

 

[Griffdog]

I guess I'm just full of uncharitable generalizations, eh?

"From my experience" (a term you like to use for your more charitable generalizations), I see scores of churches as unprofessional and unkept. Principles of management, including the management of the home are vital to the success of the church. These are the universal principles that cannot be ignored, not to be cast aside because business uses them as well.

The church is NOT a business, of course, but often times professionals value the product more than Christians and pastors perhaps value theirs. Something we can all learn from.

Josh

 

[Don]

SBC - if I understand the title of his new book, then my point is still valid.

The new book is aimed at the individual. The previous book was aimed at the pastor/manager. The #1 thing the pastor has to do is include his flock.

It should have been addressed in the first book, not been fodder for a second one.

 

[Pastork]

Josh,

I never said or implied that you were "full of uncharitable generalizations." I listed what I thought were two uncharitable assumptions, based upon my own divergent experience, as well as my own understanding of how to treat others. For example, it seemed to me that you were ready to assume the worst, rather than the best, of at least "75%+ of the people in this forum."

Of course I am careful to use the term "from my experience" when I am speaking from my experience. I also assumed that, when you were careful to state that you were generalizing, you were speaking from your own experience as well. I guess the accuracy of such generalizations based upon experience has a lot to do with the kind of churches and pastors with which we have dealt as individuals.

What do you mean by "unprofessional" and "unkept"? How is this an accurate description of "scores of churches"?

Of course some of the principles which govern overseeing the church as a family will have some overlap with those that work well in the business world. I would never "cast them aside" simply because business uses them as well. Neither would I assume, however, that just because such an overlap exists, I can start reading books about principles of business management as though they were directly compatible with a Biblical understanding of how to lead the Church. I am not accusing you of this, but I do know that this has been one of the greatest criticisms of such an approach to leadership in the Church. What happens in reality is that the Church begins subtly to be viewed more as though it were a business than for what it is Biblically. As a matter of fact, one of the biggest issues I have seen in churches that are having problems is that so many of them have chosen their leaders based upon how well they do in the business world. If a man is a good business man (it is often assumed in such cases), he will be a good elder or deacon. In reality, often the opposite is true.

As for your example of how "often times professionals value the product more than Christians and pastors perhaps value theirs," I would only say that I disagree that we should view the Gospel as a "product". In fact, this is an example of the tendency I was referring to above. Cues have begun to be taken from the business world about how to be more "professional" and be better "managers" and now the Gospel is being referred to as a "product". And once we find that speaking of the Gospel as a "product" becomes acceptable, treating it as a "product" is not far behind.

Pastork

[ December 04, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Pastork ]

 

[bjonson]

I am with those who are concerned that Warren is too "user-friendly".

I just went to his church's website and viewed a video of Rick giving "the Gospel". Maybe I missed something, but I didn't hear anything about repentance in his message. It is possibly the worst "invitation" I've ever heard. Listen:

http://www.saddleback.org/home/yourpurpose.asp

Brian

 

[Dr. Bob]

Griffdog - Did you go to the PD Conference at Saddleback last month? How 'bout a report, since this thread is being kicked up a notch?

 

[Griffdog]

I sure did. Absolutely amazing ... full report after church tonight. Wednesday night, you know!

Josh

 

[Molly]

Originally posted by bjonson:
I am with those who are concerned that Warren is too "user-friendly".

I just went to his church's website and viewed a video of Rick giving "the Gospel". Maybe I missed something, but I didn't hear anything about repentance in his message. It is possibly the worst "invitation" I've ever heard. Listen:

http://www.saddleback.org/home/yourpurpose.asp

Brian

We had strong concerns with this as well.

Molly

 

[SaggyWoman]

I went to the PD Children's ministry conference and gained tremendously from it.

 

[Griffdog]

It honestly was amazing. This was the third time I went to the PDYM conference, here's why:

1) The first time I went, I was about to quit. My wife and I went out of frustration of the ministry and God worked wonders in our lives and kept us in. We didn't know what He was going to do through it all, but we came back ready to stay. Fortunately, the church had rejected my earlier resignation. Praise the Lord!

2) The second time was the week after September 11th, the airfare and hotel had dropped out the bottom so I went - the whole trip for less than $500. It was amazing, I prayed that time for God to expand His ministry and show me a vision for what He would do if we were willing. Praise the Lord!

3) We got back 40 days ago now, and we're pressing forward. We took 3 key leaders from our student ministry and saw tremendous growth. God was SO good to us, He gave everyone a boost after just 48 hours there. These were guys who work major hours and can't just get away - we all went and had a blast. Praise the Lord!

As for the message, the Gospel was as strong as ever, they are so comfortable being strong in the faith even when other dismiss them as too big to take a stand. They had just finished a student ministry series on abortion and homosexuality - two topics I think few pulpits in America would take head on like they did. And despite being so visible they refuse to let modernism and criticism compromise the message.

Over and over again they used piles of Scripture, proclaimed the Gospel and encouraged youth workers. I don't feel the need to defend them - I'm just trying to share a HUGE blessing and benefit I had from attending.

Our staff grew, our vision grew, and 4 lives forever will be different. God is at the center there without a doubt, and no matter how they appear to the casual or critical observer I strongly suggest you see it for yourself.

Josh

 

[Pastork]

Josh,

I have not been able to post much for the last couple of months, but I wanted you to know that I am glad that God has been working in your life and in your church. I join with you in praising the Lord for all His blessings!

You have asserted that you "don't feel the need to defend them [Saddleback, et al]" and that "God is at the center there without a doubt, and no matter how they appear to the casual or critical observer I strongly suggest you see it for yourself." Well, given that I was probably the one who interacted most critically with some of your earlier posts in this thread, I just thought I would add here that my criticisms were not really aimed at Saddleback or the purpose driven approach. I was interacting with what you were saying in my previous posts, the most recent of which you chose not to answer. I respect your decision not to continue our discussion, but I wanted to clarify that I never saw myself as seeking a defense of Saddleback from you.

Pastork

[ May 29, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Pastork ]

 

[Charlesga]

I am familiar with Warren and his book....I do have a problem with churches that try to pattern themselves after other "successful" churches without seeking the Lord's direction for their church...what works for one does not work for all...and what God has for one, He does not necessarily have for all. That being said, I had problems when we did a church wide purpose driven church study instead of seeking God's direction and doing what He's called us to do.

 

[Griffdog]

When I read Purpose-Driven Student Ministry, it was like, "Yes - this is what I've been trying to do EXACTLY for the past couple of years." Finally someone wrote down what I think God has been trying to show me. We are not Saddleback Jr. - we are simply a church who has seen Biblical purpose and are structuring what we do around them.

Josh

 

[Sherrie]

Hi Griffdog...I read the Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren, and Also the Purpose driven Youth ministry.

I also did some training in the Saddleback "Celebrate Recovery" (the twelve steps and their bibical comparrison.) And brought those principles to Dexter, MO. I developed a program here that was quit sucessful, which also lead to Church on Friday night.

I find the Purpose driven Church to be sucessful when you are dealing in larger numbers in a Church. But the things suggested in the book; for those smaller churches do not always work, and can sometimes be a very big disappointment. But not everything always works for one, like it will another.

You have to admire Rick Warren, when you see where he started, and where he is. The thing I liked best about the whole book is he says, he does not want you coming to his church if you already have a church, and if you come, don't be thinking you are just showing up on Sunday. You are just taking up space for someone else. Everyone in his church is to be a worker. Now I am sure there are some who still just show up on Sunday, but after seeing his church, and what all he has done, he has been very sucessful at it. And I do like the fact he reaches out not to just the Rich in that area, but to all.

I am missing out on this years activities there, But I do not think you can go wrong reading his book, or thinking of his ideas, no matter how big or little your church is. Even if you are not a Pastor, you can still read the book and come back better ready to be involved in your own church. Perhaps ready to try some of your own ideas.

Sherrie

 

[WillRain]

I've read it and I'm reading it through again with a highlighter in hand.

I like a very great deal abut his approch, and I really don't see it as emphisizing sucsess before the world. I don't recall a single passage in which he says anything about whether men or the world are impressed with the growth of the church. His emphesis on sucsess is being sucsessful in bringing people to Christ - something we'd all like to see.

there are quibbles, I don't much care for mega-churches in principle anyway - but on the whole, I feel it has recived far more criticism than it deserves.
I think I'll trip over to that other thread tonight and see what's flying there.