The Purpose of Remaining Indwelling Sin and Corruptions in the People of God

[KenH]

“And, for a like reason, the indwelling sin and corruptions of God's people are suffered to remain in them, for the trial of their graces, and that the power of God in the support and deliverance of them might appear the more manifest.”

- from John Gill’s Bible commentary on Judges 2:22-23

 

[KenH]

A hymn written by Joseph Irons in Zion's Hymns. (in common meter)

Joshua 17:12 Yet the children of Manasseh could not drive out the inhabitants of those cities; but the Canaanites would dwell in that land.

"Canaanites in the Land"

1. Jehovah's tribes, redeem'd by might,
In cov'nant with Him stand,
But still, the cursed Canaanite,
Will dwell within their land.

2. In God's own house they dare intrude,
And with His saints resort;
But in His strength they are subdued,
And under tribute brought.

3. What comfort, confidence, delights,
Would Christians daily share;
But for their in-bred Canaanites,
Alas! they still are there.

4. Where'er they turn within the land
They meet the Canaanite;
But still, led on by Jesus' hand,
With sin and hell they fight.

5. Almighty Joshua, make me strong,
My Canaanites destroy;
Give vict'ry, and the victor's song
Shall endless years employ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Zech. 14:21. 'In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.'
Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

 

[Tenchi]

“And, for a like reason, the indwelling sin and corruptions of God's people are suffered to remain in them, for the trial of their graces, and that the power of God in the support and deliverance of them might appear the more manifest.”

- from John Gill’s Bible commentary on Judges 2:22-23

And the letters of Paul, Peter and John in the New Testament, describing born-again believers as those who are freed spiritually from the power of sin and death?

1 Corinthians 1:30
Romans 6.
Romans 8:9-16
Colossians 2:9-13
1 Peter 1:18-19
1 Peter 2:9
2 Peter 1:3-4
1 John 2:29
1 John 3:5-6, 9-10

And so on.

As Judges 2:17-23 indicates, in general, the people of Israel were a wayward bunch, straying persistently from God into worship of pagan idols. None of them had the benefit of the New Covenant and the constantly indwelling Holy Spirit by which they might have won free of their incorrigible rebelliousness and sin. This is the story of the Old Testament: The Law cannot bring anyone into proper, life-changing fellowship with God; for there is no power for righteousness in the Law, only condemnation. I think it's a very bad idea, then, to draw the sort of parallel that Gill does in the quotation above between those under the "new and living way" established in and through Jesus Christ and those in the OT who were operating under a very different, law-based covenant with God.

 

[KenH]

And the letters of Paul, Peter and John in the New Testament, describing born-again believers as those who are freed spiritually from the power of sin and death?

Do you still sin? Do you fight a constant war against your own flesh? And, if so, do you always win? Are there still "Canaanites" in your flesh refusing to leave, and causing you all kinds of difficulties?

 

[Silverhair]

Do you still sin? Do you fight a constant war against your own flesh? And, if so, do you always win? Are there still "Canaanites" in your flesh refusing to leave, and causing you all kinds of difficulties?

Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

 

[KenH]

Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Are you saying that you no longer struggle with your flesh, or the devil, or the world?

 

[Silverhair]

Are you saying that you no longer struggle with your flesh, or the devil, or the world?

Did not say that did I but the approach of Gill and is ilk is that man is so depraved that all they can do is sin. Calvinists seem to live to flagellate themselves for their perceived total depravity.

 

[KenH]

man is so depraved that all they can do is sin.

That is the case. The souls of God's elect, chosen before the world began, have been redeemed and made new; their fleshly bodies will not be made new until Christ comes again and sets up the new heavens and the new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

Romans 3:9-18.

Romans 7:7-25.

Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[Tenchi]

Do you still sin? Do you fight a constant war against your own flesh? And, if so, do you always win? Are there still "Canaanites" in your flesh refusing to leave, and causing you all kinds of difficulties?

No, there aren't any "Canaanites" in my life. Thank God. But this is what ought to be the case after fifty years of walking with God - as those Bible verses/passages I cited in my last post indicate. Progressively, as I've lived in the way God has prescribed to all of His children, the awful, torturous wrestling with "besetting sins" that characterized my younger, ignorant and spiritually immature years has subsided and sin is increasingly becoming the exception rather than the rule. It is actually possible to live in the truth - and freedom - of Romans 6, 8:9-13, Galatians 5:16, 25, Colossians 2:9-13, etc.

 

[Silverhair]

That is the case. The souls of God's elect, chosen before the world began, have been redeemed and made new; their fleshly bodies will not be made new until Christ comes again and sets up the new heavens and the new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

Romans 3:9-18.

Romans 7:7-25.

Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Ken you have fallen down the rabbit hole. No one was chosen before the foundation of the world but that is the calvinist misinformation that you have bought into.

 

[David Lamb]

Ken you have fallen down the rabbit hole. No one was chosen before the foundation of the world but that is the calvinist misinformation that you have bought into.

You seem to want to change Ephesians 1:3-4 from:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:3-4 NKJV)

to something like this: " “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, but ignore those who tell you that He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,”

The verses, (as originally written) have Paul telling the Ephesian Christians that God did choose them before the foundation of the world. You say that He didn't choose anyone before the foundation of the world, and that such teaching is Calvinist misinformation. You seem to be saying that Paul got it wrong.

 

[KenH]

No, there aren't any "Canaanites" in my life. Thank God. But this is what ought to be the case after fifty years of walking with God - as those Bible verses/passages I cited in my last post indicate. Progressively, as I've lived in the way God has prescribed to all of His children, the awful, torturous wrestling with "besetting sins" that characterized my younger, ignorant and spiritually immature years has subsided and sin is increasingly becoming the exception rather than the rule. It is actually possible to live in the truth - and freedom - of Romans 6, 8:9-13, Galatians 5:16, 25, Colossians 2:9-13, etc.

You experience is vastly different than mine.

 

[Tenchi]

You experience is vastly different than mine.

I think that's very sad.

What's important, though, is that your experience and mine correspond to the Truth of God's word. And when I look into the "perfect law of liberty" and see those things in it that the verse I already posted to you indicate, I see a correspondence to God's word in my life, but not in yours. Just consider Paul's words:

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:6-7
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 5:16
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

And so on.

How about the apostle John's words?

1 John 1:6-7
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:3-6
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Does the life of a born-again person that is perennially plagued by sin correspond well to these verses? It doesn't seem so to me.

 

[KenH]

Does the life of a born-again person that is perennially plagued by sin correspond well to these verses? It doesn't seem so to me.

Perhaps you have never read about the Apostle Paul's experience:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[KenH]

Does the life of a born-again person that is perennially plagued by sin correspond well to these verses? It doesn't seem so to me.

And perhaps you have never read about the experience of the Apostle Paul here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[Tenchi]

Perhaps you have never read about the Apostle Paul's experience:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Not only have I read Romans 7 (many times), I've lived in what Paul described! But, like Paul, God didn't leave me there. Like Paul, God took me into the experience of Romans 8:1-16 (and Romans 6) where the battle of Romans 7 that Paul described finds its resolution. Have you read Romans 8:1-16? If so, are you living in verses 9-14, particularly?

 

[KenH]

If so, are you living in verses 9-14, particularly?

I live in the entire Word of God as God sovereignly ordains, including struggling and fighting with my flesh 24/7. I do not pretend that sin is basically a nothingburger and easily dispensed with, as long as I live in my fallen flesh.

God is King, not totally depraved man.

 

[Tenchi]

And perhaps you have never read about the experience of the Apostle Paul here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Sure I have. It's my daily experience. The power of Christ (i.e. the Holy Spirit) rests upon me, compensating for my natural, human weakness, daily empowering, transforming and filling me as Scripture tells me the Spirit of Christ (Ro. 8:9) will do as I walk in loving, faith-filled submission to him.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Philippians 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Ephesians 3:16
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

Romans 8:13
13 ...if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Ephesians 6:10
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

 

[Tenchi]

I live in the entire Word of God as God sovereignly ordains, including struggling and fighting with my flesh 24/7. I do not pretend that sin is basically a nothingburger and easily dispensed with, as long as I live in my fallen flesh.

God is King, not totally depraved man.

It doesn't follow that if you're living well in the Truth of Romans 8:9-14 that you cannot live in the rest of God's Truth, too.

God doesn't ordain that you struggle and fight with yourself all the time. Just read His word and what He describes in it of the spiritually mature life of the Christian. It is not a life of constant battling with oneself. Such living fails to understand the Truth of Romans 6, Colossians 2:9-13; 3:1-3; Galatians 5:16, 24-25, etc.

No one has pretended that sin is a "nothing burger." But a sin-plagued life is not the normal, spiritually healthy Christian life described in the New Testament. Sin is impossible for you and I to deal with on our own, and so, God has dealt with it for us, putting to death our "Old Man" on the cross of Christ 2000 year ago and thus freeing us from his sin-producing power.

Romans 6:1-7
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Galatians 2:20
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 5:24
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Galatians 6:14
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Colossians 3:1-3
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.