The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: "It is one of the most popular arguments
for pre-trib because it mistakes "not appointed to wrath"
to mean we are not appointed to be around for
the great tribulation because God will mercifully
spare us the agony."

Ah, i see you are doing your evening exercises:
jumping to conclusions

Have a pleasant evening & God bless you.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Npetreley: "First of all, to correct you for the
umpteenth time, there is no such thing as a
7 year tribulation period. There is a 70th week,
but that is not equivalent to a tribulation period,
and there is no place in the Bible that says it is."

And your one and only one verse that PROVES
your statement is?

You're asking me to prove a negative. The burden of proof is upon you to show me any verse that says there is a 7 year tribulation period, or that Daniel's 70th week is a 7-year period of great tribulation. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, i thought i already did
in this very topic

Here we go:

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yep, back on page 2, the 6th post.
I done already said that.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Yep, back on page 2, the 6th post.
I done already said that.

All that text (from the previous post) and all you were able to demonstrate is that the antichrist will confirm a covenant with many for one week (7 years).

No mention of tribulation during that week. None. You simply assume that because the antichrist confirms a convenant with many, that means tribulation. It doesn't say it anywhere. You assume it, therefore (according to your reasoning) it must be true.

It's a flawed assumption. Note the contrast.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

Confirm a covenant. That's perceived as a good thing, otherwise there wouldn't be a "but" in the sentence. But in the middle of the week he brings an end to sacrifice and sets up the abomination of desolation. That's most definitely a bad thing.

That's the middle of the week, 3 1/2 years later, when the great tribulation begins, according to Jesus in Matthew 24.

There is no 7 year tribulation. There's a great tribulation, which begins in the middle of the 70th week.

Again, show me otherwise with real prooftexts, not your imagination of what you think it might be.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Trotter:
Tim too,

Most humble apologies. Wasn't meant as an affront, and am sorry that it wasn't worded better.

The whole arguement appears to be circular. Round and round, with no end (or quarter) in sight. And no one is coming any closer to their own goals, hence "never coming to the knowledge of the truth."

In Christ,
Trotter

Trotter,

I appreciate your Christlike attitude again.

I share your frustration, but I believe the discussion is necessary to cause those who blindly (not suggesting that you do) accept the pretrib view to examine their views. I would have never examined mine if someone had never challenged them. I had been in Baptist Churches all my life and never heard anything but the pretrib rapture until I went to college.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by npetreley:
All that text (from the previous post) and all you were able to demonstrate is that the antichrist will confirm a covenant with many for one week (7 years).

No mention of tribulation during that week. None. You simply assume that because the antichrist confirms a convenant with many, that means tribulation. It doesn't say it anywhere. You assume it, therefore (according to your reasoning) it must be true.

It's a flawed assumption.

I disagree it is flawed. Nothing in the Bible
contradicts that assumption.
However, the assumptions one has to make
to support the postrib only theory,
has enough holes in it that any linebacker
could walk through to the goal

And the prewrath compromise is even
worse, having both the bad parts of both the
pretrib theory and the postrib only theory.

BTW, we note that over in the Versions
forum hardly anbody realises that
the inerrancy doctrine is also an assumption.
You assume that the Holy Bible is inerrant
and try to find a contridiction, you can't find
one in the whole Bible (any version, for that
matter).

BTW, modern logic calls it "assumption".
In the past it was called an "axiom",
a universal truth. Before that, about
200 years ago,it was called a "self evident
truth".

BTW also, we seem to be quibbling over
whether or not the first half of the
Tribulation period is a time of wrath or
not. Doesn't have to be wrath, can just
be tribulation. Do i need to do my five
tribualtion chart again

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: "So what you're saying is that God
is responsible for many coming in His name
and claiming to be the Christ. You're saying
God delivers up the elect to tribulation to kill
the saints and for the saints to be hated by
all nations for the sake of Jesus. God makes
people betray one another and hate one another.
God sends false prophets to deceive many.
And God makes lawlessness abound so that the
love of many will grow cold.

That's what you're saying."

This is a very ugly, very false argument.
You err in using it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

There is no tribualtion in the first half
of the 70th week?

Here is some events i believe happen in the
first half of the 70th week:

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

Nobody has any tribulation in the 4th seal?
Hello, runaway inflation and famine can be pretty
tribulating

Ah those classic earthquakes in the latter
part of Chapter 6. Folks crying for the earth
to swallow them so they won't be in tribulation.

144,000 sealed so they won't be killed, wouldn't
it kind of be tribualtion if they were killed?
They are being put in a tribulating situation
and have the seal for protection from a tribulation.

People who get flashed (tee hee, get flashed with
fire not with a moon) by the two witnesses, don't
they have some tribulation? The loved ones of
those who get burned by the two witnesses, don't
they suffer tribulation?

Hello planet wormwood smashing into the earth.
Nobody suffering a little bit of the tribualation
here.

The first half of the 70th week is the Tribulation Period
the second half of the 70th week (after the AOD)
is the Great Tribulation Period.

Praise God i'm outta here at the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection seven years before the Second
Advent when Jesus comes to defeat the AC and set
up His physical Millennial Kingdom. If somebody wants
to shout "Amen", now would be a real good time to
do it.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Npetreley: "So what you're saying is that God
is responsible for many coming in His name
and claiming to be the Christ. You're saying
God delivers up the elect to tribulation to kill
the saints and for the saints to be hated by
all nations for the sake of Jesus. God makes
people betray one another and hate one another.
God sends false prophets to deceive many.
And God makes lawlessness abound so that the
love of many will grow cold.

That's what you're saying."

This is a very ugly, very false argument.
You err in using it.

Just stating the obvious. If the "tribulation" (actually the great tribulation) is of God, as pre-tribbers claim, then God is the author of and is responsible for the events in the great tribulation. If it is not of God, then your premise is incorrect, and yet another huge flaw in pre-trib is exposed.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
There is no tribualtion in the first half
of the 70th week?

Here is some events i believe happen in the
first half of the 70th week:

This is where you err. You believe these will happen in the first half of the 70th week, but you have provided absolutely no scriptural support for the conclusion. Something is not true simply because you believe it. Show me the scripture that demonstrates that these events occur in the first half of the week, and then we'll talk. And don't bother with all your fanciful speculation - I want real chronology right in the text. That's what I've provided for you - statements such as "immediately after the tribulation of those days". That takes no speculation whatsoever. It is plain, clear language.

 

[Trotter]

Tim too,

I had never heard any of it, at any time, in my life. When Jesus Christ saved me, I began to hear about this stuff, but thought nothing of it.

When God began to call me into ministry, I again came face-to-face with the idea of the Rapture and the Tribulation. But by now I was no longer a babe in Christ (about 7 years). I took it upon myself to see what it was all about.

After extensive reading of the Scriptures (not just the ones used by pre-tribbers, but ALL of the Scriptures), I could clearly see the Rapture, and that it would come before the Tribulation. As far as a seven year Tribulation, I'm not so sure about its length (interpreting symbolism is not my forte).

I understand that you and npretreley see, and interpret, these things differently than I, which in a way is a good thing (it keeps us all on our toes as far as what and why we believe). We each have a right to do so, and still remain Baptists.

I guess the point I am so poorly trying to make is that I did not blindly accept someone else's opinion in this matter. It was between God and myself only. I believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture, and that it is Biblical.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Tim too]

Trotter,

I wasn't implying that you blindly accepted the pretrib rapture view. The average Baptist on the other hand has. There is hardly ever anything but the rapture taught in our Baptist churches today. Take that, together with the Scofield Bible, Lindsey, LaHaye and Jenkins, and all the popular preachers who preach this view and no other... If the pretrib view is wrong your average Christian is not going to have a clue as to what to look for.

Is it wrong to have all the different views presented just in case you or I maybe wrong?

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: "Show me the scripture that demonstrates
that these events occur in the first half of the week,
and then we'll talk."

Thank you. I was tiring of talking to you.
Someday you will find out that the scriptue is NOT
designed to your liking. Nowhere does the
scripture say FOUR, it just says a couple of twos
and you have to add it together.

I'm a layman and i have to invest about 55 hours a week
trying to make a living for my family. I really don't
have time to spoon feed you while you spit food in
my face. There is a big blessing you are missing
by insisting that everything be spelled out in detail
when it isn't. We modern humans tend to have way
to much time on our hand and we sit around thinking
of questions that we really don't even need to know.

Jesus is coming to get me before the Tribulation Period
starts at the pretribulation Rapture/resurrection.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Tim too:
Is it wrong to have all the different views presented just in case you or I maybe wrong?

Probably doesn't hurt anything.
But let us not forget the full counsel of God:

Romans 14:23b (KJV1769):
... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I'm a layman and i have to invest about 55 hours a week
trying to make a living for my family. I really don't
have time to spoon feed you while you spit food in
my face.

Sorry, Ed, you haven't proven anything, and it's the height of arrogance to suggest you are spoon feeding anyone when in fact it's only your subjective interpretive scheme that you've been giving us.

Jesus is coming to get me before the Tribulation Period
starts at the pretribulation Rapture/resurrection.

I don't see how that can be, when the "pretrib rapture" is merely a myth which originated in the 18th century.

Jesus is coming to get all of His faithful when He gathers His elect after the tribulation. (Matthew 24:29-31). I think that is spelled out rather clearly.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Greeting Brother Doubting Thomas!
I hope you had a well Lord's Day (Sonday).

Romans 14:19 (nKJV):
Therefore let us pursue the things which make
for peace and the things by which one may edify
another.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:

Jesus is coming to get all of His faithful when He gathers His elect after the tribulation. (Matthew 24:29-31). I think that is spelled out rather clearly.

I think that is NOT clear. Matthew 24:31 is NOT connected
with Matthew 24:29-30 IF ONE TRYS
to make sense of Matthew 24:3.

If, of course, one wants to ignore
Matthew 24:3 ....

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I think that is NOT clear. Matthew 24:31 is NOT connected
with Matthew 24:29-30 IF ONE TRYS
to make sense of Matthew 24:3.

If, of course, one wants to ignore
Matthew 24:3 ....

Nope. Don't see it, Ed. Matthew 24:3 in no way requires one to disconnect Matthew 24:31 from Matthew 24:29-31. But, then again, when one is a pretribber, one can find all sorts of alleged nuances in Scripture that supposedly separate what God has meant to be together...

 

[Ed Edwards]

So how do you explain "first"
in Revelation 20:4? Don't you
dare START with the dictionary

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I think that is NOT clear. Matthew 24:31 is NOT connected
with Matthew 24:29-30 IF ONE TRYS
to make sense of Matthew 24:3.

If, of course, one wants to ignore
Matthew 24:3 ....

You have explicitly connected statements - Immediately after...then...and. But you go back to Matthew 24:3 and invent a way to disconnect these statements in order to make them fit your presupposition of pre-trib rapture. If one has to break up, twist and rearrange the plain language of scripture in order to make pre-trib work, surely this ought to raise some suspicions that pre-trib isn't taught by scripture?

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.