The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

[Ed Edwards]

(Mat 24:30-31) "Then the sign of the Son of Man
will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes
of the earth will mourn, and they will see
the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory.

{31} "AND1 He will send His angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, AND2 they will gather together
His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note that AND1 is a polysndenton.
Polysndenton is a rhetorical devise.
How about that

a rhetorical devise
in a prophecy!!!! The three questions in
Matthew 24:3 demand this interpertation.
If not, you are welcome to tell me the answer to
the disciples questions ONLY in words from
Matthew 24:4-44. All phrases must be used at least
once in your answer.

When will the temple be destroyed?
Soon. Matthew 24:4-20

What is the sign when Jesus comes again?
Tribulation Period. Matthew 24:21-30

What is the sign of the end of the age?
None. Matthew 24:31-44

AND2 is a conjunctive and that joins seperate
events.

"And" is such a simple word, try to get it
right when reading the Bible.
Thank you.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
(Mat 24:30-31) "Then the sign of the Son of Man
will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes
of the earth will mourn, and they will see
the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory.

{31} "AND1 He will send His angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, AND2 they will gather together
His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note that AND1 is a polysndenton.
Polysndenton is a rhetorical devise.
How about that

a rhetorical devise
in a prophecy!!!! The three questions in
Matthew 24:3 demand this interpertation.
If not, you are welcome to tell me the answer to
the disciples questions ONLY in words from
Matthew 24:4-44. All phrases must be used at least
once in your answer.

When will the temple be destroyed?
Soon. Matthew 24:4-20

What is the sign when Jesus comes again?
Tribulation Period. Matthew 24:21-30

What is the sign of the end of the age?
None. Matthew 24:31-44

AND2 is a conjunctive and that joins seperate
events.

"And" is such a simple word, try to get it
right when reading the Bible.
Thank you.

This would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. Once again, it is Ed Edwards who insists on altering the natural reading of Scripture to somehow summon up seven years to separate verse 31 from the two verses prior. Never mind that the natural reading of the passage and the teaching of the historic church is that Christ will come again at the end of the age. They are not separate events despite the fact that your a priori belief must insist that they are. Thinking that the answers to all three of the disciples questions must somehow require three separate events is also an example of faulty reasoning.

 

[Ed Edwards]

YOu never had your teacher tell you:
"Never start a sentence with 'and'"?
I sure did. Because they were not aware
of the polysndeton AND. But look at
Genesis 1 and Matthew 24 -- both have many
sentences that begin with and.

Recall that the Greeks did not have Microsoft
so they couldn't make little bullets in front
of key. All they had was the retorical devise:
the polysndeton AND. I say that a major
division of Matthew 24 in keeping with the
three questions asked by the disciples in
Matthew 24:3 is:

1. Matthew 4:4-20
2. Matthew 24:21-30
3. Matthew 24:31-44

The outline answers the three questions in Matthew 24:3
in the order in which the questions were asked,
not in the time oreder in which the three events
occur.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BTW, AND (Strongs #2532) is also misunderstood
by both premill posties and amill posties in
2 Thessalonains 2:1. There "and" connects two
seperate events (pretrib) and does not denote
two different names of the same thing (postrib).

by "and"

How about the "first" in Revelation 204?
How about "day" any and everywhere it appears?

Yes simple words, but by postie twisting of these
words they come up with the hopeless postrib
only rapture theory. By proper use of these words,
i come up with the BLESSED HOPE (Titus 2:15):
the pretribualation rapture/resurrection/glorification.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Doubting Thomas: "Never mind that the natural reading
of the passage and the teaching of the historic church
is that Christ will come again at the end of the age."

Amen, Brother Doubting Thomas -- Preach it!
Jesus promised to come back and get his bride at the end
of the age. To bad you are blind to the end of the
age being before the Tribulation Period, not after.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Amen, Brother Doubting Thomas -- Preach it!
Jesus promised to come back and get his bride at the end
of the age. To bad you are blind to the end of the
age being before the Tribulation Period, not after.

On the contrary, too bad that you keep insisting there are two separate second comings when there is in fact only one, and that you are thus blind to the fact that the church will go through the tribulation before Christ comes back to gather His elect at the end of the age. I'll at least be ready for the hard times which Christ said would precede His second coming--will you?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Ed,
By the way, I've read ad nauseam all the speculative pretrib timelines you keep reposting over and over during my days when I was a hard core pre-tribber. I was taught pre-trib and I read and breathed pre-trib, so that stuff was as "self-evident" to me as it is to you. I even read about all the different so-called definitions of "and" and how key usages of the word allow for two events separated by seven years. However, when I was challenged to step back from all the pretrib commentaries and let the Scriptures speak for themselves, I realized that the pretrib position is untenable despite all the impressive looking timelines that have been offered in its defense. (Also, it's funny-- all this speculation about "and" reminds me of a certain president who would equivocate on the definition of the word, "is".)

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Ed,
By the way, I've read ad nauseam all the speculative pretrib timelines you keep reposting over and over during my days when I was a hard core pre-tribber. I was taught pre-trib and I read and breathed pre-trib, so that stuff was as "self-evident" to me as it is to you. I even read about all the different so-called definitions of "and" and how key usages of the word allow for two events separated by seven years. However, when I was challenged to step back from all the pretrib commentaries and let the Scriptures speak for themselves, I realized that the pretrib position is untenable despite all the impressive looking timelines that have been offered in its defense. (Also, it's funny-- all this speculation about "and" reminds me of a certain president who would equivocate on the definition of the word, "is".)

That's very close to my experience going from pre-trib to pre-wrath (which is the same as post-trib with a minor twist). I really wanted pre-trib to be true, so I bought into all the fanciful arguments. To be blunt, I heard what my itching ears wanted to hear. But the problems with the explanations really bugged me, and the more I tried to "solve" them, the more I realized the whole pre-trib scenario was untenable.

Like so many Biblical truths, the truth about the chronology of the end-times is a difficult pill to swallow at first, but in the end it's a source of supernatural comfort.

 

[npetreley]

Ed,

There are two huge problems with your analysis. First, you come up with an elaborate way to redefine a simple conjunction in order to break up the natural flow of the text and make it say what you want it to say.

Second, you ignore the fact that the chronological series of events in Revelation 6-7 parallel the natural reading of Matthew 24 perfectly, with the only exception being that Matthew 24 does not mention the sealing of the 144,000 for protection during wrath. Both Matthew 24 and Revelation 6/7 describe the great tribulation, the signs of the Day of the Lord and the rapture (gathering of the elect from the whole world, every nation).

Matthew 24:15-28 ~ Revelation 6:1-11
Matthew 24:29-30 ~ Revelation 6:12-17
Revelation 7:1-8 (sealing of 144,000)
Matthew 24:31 ~ Revelation 7:9-17

You break the parallel by rearranging the chronology of Matthew based on nothing more than a fanciful interpretation of the word "and".

But then you know all this already, so I'm not sure why I bother.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: "But then you know all this
already, so I'm not sure why
I bother."

Cause I forgot a lot of stuff?

I was pretrib 48 yerars before i heard of
the polysyndeton AND.
I was pretrib 45 yerars before i saw
that Revelation 4:1 is a TYPE of the
pretribulation rapture.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Doubting Thomas: "I'll at least be ready for
the hard times which Christ said would
precede His second coming - will you?

Jesus Didn't say hard times would PRECEDE
His second coming. Jesus promised us
hard times RIGHT NOW, before the Tribulation
Period. I've had enough personal
tribualtion i'd be glad to share the
extra with you? I know from
personal experience that one does not
need to waith for the Tribualtion Period
to have tribualtion.


The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adan & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Interesting, Brother Doubting Thomas. You debunk my arguments and make no
calims of your own.
Tell us what you believe .
Or do you just go around doubting the
bleiefs of others??

BTW, I know what "IS" is

IS = insufficient stream.
Yes, i have the tribulation of
prostate problems

[ September 23, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thank you brother Npetreley about your
correlation data between Matthew 24:15-31
and Revelation 6:1-7:17.
I'm not familiar with this
so shall look it over.

What is the time of application of
Matthew 24:4-14?
What is the application NOW of knowing
about Matthew 24:32-44?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Interesting, Brother Doubting Thomas. You debunk my arguments and make no
calims of your own.
Tell us what you believe .
Or do you just go around doubting the
bleiefs of others??

No, I just go around doubting the beliefs of others--hence the name "Doubting Thomas"

It's nothing personal. Those beliefs in others which I "go around doubting" the most are the ones I used to subscribe to unquestionably. (And no, pretribulationism isn't the only such belief )

As far as my own eschatology...well, let's just say it's in a state of flux. I guess I'm currently closest to a prewrath or posttrib type of position, but I'm not ready to say, "I'm a posttribber" or "I'm a prewrather". I do believe that Christ will come again--once--after the (great) tribulation at or near the end of the "70th week" to gather His elect (the Church, including Gentiles and Jews) and pour out His wrath on the beast and then "judge the quick and the dead of the sons of men".

BTW, I know what "IS" is

IS = insufficient stream.
Yes, i have the tribulation of
prostate problems

Ouch...sorry to hear that. That's not something I'm looking forward to, but that's certainly common in us men.

Ed, I just want you to know that I'm sorry if the language in any of my posts may have been to harsh or sounded to personal. I disagree with your views strongly, but I do enjoy your sense of humor. (I especially get a kick out of some of your posts on the topic of KJV-Onlyism

)
Anyway, I'm going to step away for awhile. My wife is 39 1/2 weeks pregnant with our firstborn, so I need to get geared up for fatherhood.
Later....

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Anyway, I'm going to step away for awhile. My wife is 39 1/2 weeks pregnant with our firstborn, so I need to get geared up for fatherhood.
Later....

Congratulations!!!!! Your live is about to change (for the better) forever!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Anyway, I'm going to step away for awhile. My wife is 39 1/2 weeks pregnant with our firstborn, so I need to get geared up for fatherhood.
Later....

Congratulations!!!!! Your live is about to change (for the better) forever! </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks--that what everyone keeps telling me.

 

[Gunther]

If you want to know what it feels like, hit your thumb with a hammer.

- ducking, running, and not looking back -

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yes, Doubting Thomas, fatherhood is an
awesome responsibility. My youngest turned
21 Monday a week ago.

Lord we lift up the unborn soul of DT's child.
May this human person child, when they are come
to the age of understanding be lead unmistakenly
to belief in Jesus, the Messiah, and salvation.
May this be done that we might give all the more
honor and glory unto our blessed Savior:
Messiah Jesus. Amen

 

[dianetavegia]

Oh Doubting Thomas! What a joy! Let us know when baby arrives!

God bless you all,
Diane