Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
[qb]The textbook we used in Seminary was by J. Barton Payne so that should explain a lot!
Agreed to be sure.
Interested on what basis you see the Rapture "soon after" the arrival of AntiChrist.>>
Please excuse me for "butting" in, but I posted earlier under this topic and my feelings are that the antichrist isn't going to just pop up and be known to the world as such. To me, the antichrist will start from a human birth and when he reaches manhood, he will be extremely popular to Christians as well as all others. He will become, during the first 3 1'2 years, a world leader. He will know he is the antichrist and will thus decieve all, or at least most. The Rapture will come with his arrival. I would be out of line to say when he was a child, or, when he was grown. Could be either? The Rapture would be for those saved at that time, both living and dead.
The rest will still have a chance to beleive in Jesus, but it will be many, many times harder then. Most will not believe during the last and horrible times when the antichrist reveals himself as the evil one. During this time, in my opinion, Satan will have full control of him BUT Jesus wins at the end!! And so do all believers. To me there will be two comings of Jesus, the Rapture and the final judgement for all, including those who believe.
God Bless............Alex
PS: Someone may have replied to my post, but I have just got the "hang" of getting around to the various topics.
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The Rapture....
- Thread starter livin'intheword
- Start date
I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millenium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3). "I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it... The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it" (Revelation 21:22, 22:3).So the place he is preparing for us is here on earth?
Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He says nothing about his making a U-turn back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millenium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).
http://www.geocities.com/postrib
Ray Berrian
New Member
postrib,
You spoke of Christ not making a U turn. Trust me He knows where He is going. He is coming to the 'clouds' [I Thess. 4:17] which hints that He is coming down from His realm to take us to Heaven. You see if He really were going to come down to us and then immediately go to Rev. 19:11 and down to the earth, He would not have hesitated in the 'clouds.' The reason is He is gathering His saints from all ages at the resurrection to take us to Heaven for the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage of the Lamb
Note that in Rev. 19:11 God does not say that He was coming down to the 'clouds' for the resurrection and then on to the destruction of the wicked. What He indeed does say is what the Apostle John tells us, 'I saw HEAVEN opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat on it was called Faithful and True . . . ' Here is a totally different scene than depicted at the calling of the church home.
At the rapture He, personally comes to the 'clouds,' riding on nothing; [at the Second Coming He enters our sphere, this time riding on a white horse. [Rev. 19:11]
At His appearance at the rapture He will come with a shout and the sound of the archangel plus the trumpet of God. This appearance will be a victory for He and His church.
At the Second Coming it will be a victory of He and His church over the world [Rev. 19:18] At this event there will be no 'shout, sound of the archangel nor a trumpet of God sounding.' These difference should make a student of the Word to question a one coming theory.
Respectfully,
Dr. Berrian
You spoke of Christ not making a U turn. Trust me He knows where He is going. He is coming to the 'clouds' [I Thess. 4:17] which hints that He is coming down from His realm to take us to Heaven. You see if He really were going to come down to us and then immediately go to Rev. 19:11 and down to the earth, He would not have hesitated in the 'clouds.' The reason is He is gathering His saints from all ages at the resurrection to take us to Heaven for the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage of the Lamb
Note that in Rev. 19:11 God does not say that He was coming down to the 'clouds' for the resurrection and then on to the destruction of the wicked. What He indeed does say is what the Apostle John tells us, 'I saw HEAVEN opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat on it was called Faithful and True . . . ' Here is a totally different scene than depicted at the calling of the church home.
At the rapture He, personally comes to the 'clouds,' riding on nothing; [at the Second Coming He enters our sphere, this time riding on a white horse. [Rev. 19:11]
At His appearance at the rapture He will come with a shout and the sound of the archangel plus the trumpet of God. This appearance will be a victory for He and His church.
At the Second Coming it will be a victory of He and His church over the world [Rev. 19:18] At this event there will be no 'shout, sound of the archangel nor a trumpet of God sounding.' These difference should make a student of the Word to question a one coming theory.
Respectfully,
Dr. Berrian
"Coming in the clouds" (Matthew 24:30).He is coming to the 'clouds'
Rather, to rule the earth for the millenium.He is coming down from His realm to take us to Heaven
"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31). "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).He is gathering His saints
Note that the Bible shows neither the judgment nor the marriage of the church nor the marriage supper as happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.to take us to Heaven for the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage of the Lamb
Note that every description of the 2nd coming and rapture doesn't include every element of it. For example, we don't find the shout or the voice of the archangel of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 anywhere in 1 Corinthians 15:52, nor do we find the white horse of Revelation 19:11 or Jesus' setting foot on the Mount of Olives of Zechariah 14:4 anywhere in Matthew 24:29-31. Do some then believe that Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two separate events?At the rapture He, personally comes to the 'clouds,' riding on nothing; [at the Second Coming He enters our sphere, this time riding on a white horse. [Rev. 19:11]
http://www.geocities.com/postrib
Ray Berrian
New Member
Postrib,
I believe Matthew 24:29-31 speaks of 'immediately after the Tribulation' and in verse 21 He speaks of the Great Tribulation. After the Great Tribulation is the Second Coming of Christ in Revelation 19:11. In this sense both references teach that He will come to judge the lost with the 'sword of His mouth smiting the nations.'
His 'ruling them with a rod of iron' [Rev. 19:15c]predicts that He will reign for 1,000 years in His Millennial Kingdom. [Zechariah 14:9 & 16] Even in the Millennial reign there will be those who reject He and His authority, to their own peril. [vs.17d & 18 & 19].
Dr. Berrian
I believe Matthew 24:29-31 speaks of 'immediately after the Tribulation' and in verse 21 He speaks of the Great Tribulation. After the Great Tribulation is the Second Coming of Christ in Revelation 19:11. In this sense both references teach that He will come to judge the lost with the 'sword of His mouth smiting the nations.'
His 'ruling them with a rod of iron' [Rev. 19:15c]predicts that He will reign for 1,000 years in His Millennial Kingdom. [Zechariah 14:9 & 16] Even in the Millennial reign there will be those who reject He and His authority, to their own peril. [vs.17d & 18 & 19].
Dr. Berrian
Ray Berrian
New Member
How do you know that the Judgment Seat of Christ will follow directly after the gathering of the church to Heaven at the rapture?
Matthew 16:27 is speaking of the rapture of the church and watch what directly follows after the church is gathered into the clouds. (not the coming down to earth and the setting up of the Millinimum) Matthew, under Divine inspiration says, ‘For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; AND THEN HE SHALL REWARD EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS' [Matt. 16:27]. Sinners are never rewarded only saints.
In Luke 14:14 the physician says this. ‘ . . . for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.' At the rapture there will take place ‘the resurrection of the saints [I Thess. 4:17 & I Cor. 15:51-58] Christians rewards/recompense will be give immediately after their resurrection into the clouds. Also, notice why would God define ‘the resurrection of the just' if the wicked were raised together on the last day. This would be superfluous to use this phrase. Here as in other places God's Word teaches the resurrection of the unjust and a resurrection of His saints.
Notice I Corinthians 3:13 & II Timothy 4:8 suggests the same day--the day when Christ will come for His church. Note the phrase ‘for the day shall declare it' and ‘at that day'. I Cor. 3:12-15 & II Timothy 4:8 speaks of the Judgment Seat of Christ. In the reference from II Timothy the Apostle Paul connects His coming for the church {rapture} by using the words, ‘unto all who love His appearing.' When will this reward of ‘the crown of righteousness' be given. It will be given immediately after the gathering of the saints into the cloud and on to Heaven.
The closing book of the canon, Revelation, the Apostle John links Christ's coming for His church and the Judgment Seat of Christ together. In the last chapter of our Bibles John says, ‘And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.'
Best regards,
Dr. Berrian
Matthew 16:27 is speaking of the rapture of the church and watch what directly follows after the church is gathered into the clouds. (not the coming down to earth and the setting up of the Millinimum) Matthew, under Divine inspiration says, ‘For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; AND THEN HE SHALL REWARD EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS' [Matt. 16:27]. Sinners are never rewarded only saints.
In Luke 14:14 the physician says this. ‘ . . . for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.' At the rapture there will take place ‘the resurrection of the saints [I Thess. 4:17 & I Cor. 15:51-58] Christians rewards/recompense will be give immediately after their resurrection into the clouds. Also, notice why would God define ‘the resurrection of the just' if the wicked were raised together on the last day. This would be superfluous to use this phrase. Here as in other places God's Word teaches the resurrection of the unjust and a resurrection of His saints.
Notice I Corinthians 3:13 & II Timothy 4:8 suggests the same day--the day when Christ will come for His church. Note the phrase ‘for the day shall declare it' and ‘at that day'. I Cor. 3:12-15 & II Timothy 4:8 speaks of the Judgment Seat of Christ. In the reference from II Timothy the Apostle Paul connects His coming for the church {rapture} by using the words, ‘unto all who love His appearing.' When will this reward of ‘the crown of righteousness' be given. It will be given immediately after the gathering of the saints into the cloud and on to Heaven.
The closing book of the canon, Revelation, the Apostle John links Christ's coming for His church and the Judgment Seat of Christ together. In the last chapter of our Bibles John says, ‘And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.'
Best regards,
Dr. Berrian