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The Real Ecclesia

Zenas

Active Member
On another thread, Bound takes issue with Agnus Dei about his ideas concerning the liturgy. He goes on to suggest that Agnus would not have been happy in the early church as it existed during the first 300 years. Then he suggests that the real ecclesia met in people's homes. My question for this thread is what did the real ecclesia look like in the early church? I will start with the issue of whether they met in homes or in more public places. I have always understood that they met in people's homes but have not found anything to corroborate this. In fact, the only thing that comes to mind is 1 Corinthians 11:22 where Paul says, "Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?" This suggests the church at Corinth was not meeting in a home. Can anyone point to commentary that would resolve this issue? Also (and this is something Agnus may want comment on), what did the early church service (liturgy for Agnus) look like?

Moderators, if this should be in the history forum, feel free to move it.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Zenas said:
I have always understood that they met in people's homes but have not found anything to corroborate this. In fact, the only thing that comes to mind is 1 Corinthians 11:22 where Paul says, "Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?" This suggests the church at Corinth was not meeting in a home. Can anyone point to commentary that would resolve this issue?
Scripture says some churches met in homes.

Acts 12:12
And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.

Romans 16:3-5
Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise greet the church that is in their house.

I Corinthians 16:19
Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Colossians 4:15
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Philemon 1-2
Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:
 

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
Churches were wherevr the people could gather. They met in houses, on rooftops, in fields and even in synagogues at times.

There is no doctrine supporting the idea of church-houses to-day. We have more convenient places to gather for worship.

Cheers,

Jim
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Acts 20:7-9 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
--possibly a large house

Acts 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.
Acts 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Philemon 1:2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I would take issue with Bound's claim that Agnus would not have been happy in the first three centuries of the Church due to lack of liturgy. Christianity arose from within Judaism, which is and was highly liturgical; the early liturgical records we have for the Church show striking similarities with contemporary Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican liturgies
 

Zenas

Active Member
Jerome and DHK, thanks for those cites. I think Jim1999 probably has it right, that the early Christians met wherever they could find a place. So, what did a church service look like, sound like, smell like in those days?
 

bound

New Member
Matt Black said:
I would take issue with Bound's claim that Agnus would not have been happy in the first three centuries of the Church due to lack of liturgy. Christianity arose from within Judaism, which is and was highly liturgical; the early liturgical records we have for the Church show striking similarities with contemporary Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican liturgies

I would argue the early Church was 'nothing' like what we find in many Basilicas established by Constantine after the Edict of Milan... the early ecclesia were 'the People' not 'the Basilica, Priests, Gold Braziers, Incense, etc'... it was "the People in the hope of a Promise". The Kingdom of heaven is 'in you'... not in the Basilicas...
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I would refer you to the Liturgy of James the Brother of the Lord, c.60AD which, though it contains many later interpolations, the Eucharistic Prayer is one of the more original features, and it is that which I set out below; compare it with our present Anglicac, Catholic and Orthodox Eucharistic Prayers and I think it’s fair to say that there are some striking similarities, at least as far as structure and basic content are concerned (NB ‘priest’ here is simply an Anglicisation of ‘presbyteros’ in the Greek):

The Priest The love of the Lord and Father, the grace of the Lord and Son, and the fellowship and the gift of the Holy Spirit, be with us all.

The People.

And with thy spirit.

The Priest.

Let us lift up our minds and our hearts.

The People.

It is becoming and right.

Then the Priest prays.

Verily it is becoming and right, proper and due to praise Thee, to sing of Thee, to bless Thee, to worship Thee, to glorify Thee, to give Thee thanks, Maker of every creature visible and invisible, the treasure of eternal good things, the fountain of life and immortality, God and Lord of all:
Whom the heavens of heavens praise, and all the host of them; the sun, and the moon, and all the choir of the stars; earth, sea, and all that is in them; Jerusalem, the heavenly assembly, church of the first-born that are written in heaven; spirits of just men and of prophets; souls of martyrs and of apostles; angels, archangels, thrones, dominions, principalities, and authorities, and dread powers; and the many-eyed cherubim, and the six-winged seraphim, which cover their faces with two wings, their feet with two, and with two they fly, crying one to another with unresting lips, with unceasing praises:

(Aloud.)

With loud voice singing the victorious hymn of Thy majestic glory, crying aloud, praising, shouting, and saying:—

The People.

Holy, holy, holy, O Lord of Sabaoth, the heaven and the earth are full of Thy glory. Hosanna in the highest; blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest


[tbc]

 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
continued from the Liturgy...
The Priest, making the sign of the cross on the gifts, says:
XXIX. Holy art Thou, King of eternity, and Lord and giver of all holiness; holy also Thy only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom Thou hast made all things; holy also Thy Holy Spirit, which searches all things, even Thy deep things, O God: holy art Thou, almighty, all-powerful, good, dread, merciful, most compassionate to Thy creatures; who didst make man from earth after Thine own image and likeness; who didst give him the joy of paradise; and when he transgressed Thy commandment, and fell away, didst not disregard nor desert him, O Good One, but didst chasten him as at merciful father, call him by the law, instruct him by the prophets; and afterwards didst send forth Thine only-begotten Son Himself, our Lord Jesus Christ, into the world, that He by His coming might renew and restore Thy image;
Who, having descended from heaven, and become flesh of the Holy Spirit and Virgin Godmother [A token of Post-Nicene origin. Vol. v. p. 259, Elucid. I.] Mary, and having sojourned among men, fulfilled the dispensation for the salvation of our race; and being about to endure His voluntary and life-giving death by the cross, He the sinless for us the sinners, in the night in which He was betrayed, nay, rather delivered Himself up for the life and salvation of the world,
Then the Priest holds the bread in his hand, and says:
XXX. Having taken the bread in His holy and pure and blameless and immortal hands, lifting up His eyes to heaven, and showing it to Thee, His God and Father, He gave thanks, and hallowed, and brake, and gave it to us, His disciples and apostles, saying:
The Deacons say:
For the remission of sins and life everlasting.
Then he says aloud:
Take, eat: this is my body, broken for you, and given for remission of sins.
The People.
Amen.
Then he takes the cup, and says:
In like manner, after supper, He took the cup, and having mixed wine and water, lifting up His eyes to heaven, and presenting it to Thee, His God and Father, He gave thanks, and hollowed and blessed it, and filled it with the Holy Spirit, and gave it to us His disciples, saying, Drink ye all of it; this is my blood of the new testament shed for you and many, and distributed for the remission of sins.
The People.
Amen.
The Priest.
This do in remembrance of me; for as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show forth the Lord’s death, and confess His resurrection, till He come.
The Deacons say:
We believe and confess:
The People.
We show forth Thy death, O Lord, and confess Thy resurrection.
The Priest (Oblation).
XXXI. Remembering, therefore, His life-giving sufferings, His saving cross, His death and His burial, and resurrection from the dead on the third day, and His ascension into heaven, and sitting at the right hand of Thee, our God and Father, and His second glorious and awful appearing, when He shall come with glory to judge the quick and the dead, and render to every one according to His works; even we, sinful men, offer unto Thee, O Lord, this dread and bloodless sacrifice, praying that Thou wilt not deal with us after our sins, nor reward us according to our iniquities;
But that Thou, according to Thy mercy and Thy unspeakable loving-kindness, passing by and blotting out the handwriting against us Thy suppliants, wilt grant to us Thy heavenly and eternal gifts (which eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and which have not entered into the heart of man ) that thou hast prepared, O God, for those who love Thee; and reject not, O loving Lord, the people for my sake, or for my sin’s sake:
Then he says, thrice:
For Thy people and Thy Church supplicate Thee.
The People.
Have mercy on us, O Lord our God, Father Almighty.
Again the Priest says (Invocation):
XXXII. Have mercy upon us, O God Almighty.
Have mercy upon us, O God our Saviour.
Have mercy upon us, O God, according to Thy great mercy, and send forth on us, and on these offered gifts, Thy all-holy Spirit.
Then, bowing his neck, he says:
The sovereign and quickening Spirit, that sits upon the throne with Thee, our God and Father, and with Thy only-begotten Son, reigning with Thee; the consubstantial [Post-Nicene, but legitimate.] and co-eternal; that spoke in the law and in the prophets, and in Thy New Testament; that descended in the form of a dove on our Lord Jesus Christ at the river Jordan, and abode on Him; that descended on Thy apostles in the form of tongues of fire in the upper room of the holy and glorious Zion on the day of Pentecost: this Thine all-holy Spirit, send down, O Lord, upon us, and upon these offered holy gifts;
And rising up, he says aloud:
That coming, by His holy and good and glorious appearing, He may sanctify this bread, and make it the holy body of Thy Christ.
The People.
Amen.
The Priest.
And this cup the precious blood of Thy Christ.
The People.
Amen.
The Priest by himself standing.
XXXIII. That they may be to all that partake of them for remission of sins, and for life everlasting, for the sanctification of souls and of bodies, for bearing the fruit of good works, for the stablishing of Thy Holy Catholic Church, which Thou hast founded on the Rock of Faith,that the gates of hell may not prevail against it; delivering it from all heresy and scandals, and from those who work iniquity, keeping it till the fulness of the time.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
I always wondered about early christian use of liturgy. It seem Judaism from which Christianity sprang was a liturgical religion and I would suppose that no matter where "services" were held such as homes there would be liturgical implimentation. Strange that the term for liturgy is used in the NT. So I would gather there was a form of liturgy used in the very infant church.
 

bound

New Member
Matt Black said:
I would refer you to the Liturgy of James the Brother of the Lord, c.60AD which, though it contains many later interpolations, the Eucharistic Prayer is one of the more original features, and it is that which I set out below; compare it with our present Anglicac, Catholic and Orthodox Eucharistic Prayers and I think it’s fair to say that there are some striking similarities, at least as far as structure and basic content are concerned (NB ‘priest’ here is simply an Anglicisation of ‘presbyteros’ in the Greek):


My guess is that you know I am quiet familiar with this Liturgy. The extents we have of it are old but they date well after 300 AD. We have 'no evidence' of a Christian 'liturgy' outside of Justin Martyr's outline and every single Sunday worship service lines up with that outline.

You are projecting 'High Gentile Liturgical Traditions' into the early Church. St. Paul came to 'preach'... to turn souls to the Lord in the hope of that Promise given. Were there some formality to those early services... sure and the singing of Psalms after the Judaic practice but if you think it was anything like the Imperial Liturgical Traditions that were instituted in the Roman Empire you are fooling yourself. You might want to look at the Ethiopian Churches to get a glimpse of the the early Church. Do they share some common elements with Modern Orthodoxy? Sure but they are far more Judaic then Pagan. Their Liturgies are in circles around the altar table and the Ark of the Covenant not facing East. There is no 'holy of holies' reconstructed as in the Imperial Tradition and it's much less structured after the Greek Mystery Religions of the day of Constantine.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I would disagree that the only extants we have are post-300AD; most of the MSS granted come from c.400AD but there are elements preserved in Hippolytus*, which puts it a century or so before the Constantinian Settlement.

[ETA - you also forgot about the Didache, which may well predate the Gospels]

[ETA #2 - *via the Didascalia Apostolorum, which dates from c.250AD in the Syriac and preserves the earlier sections of Hippolytus' Apostolic Tradition/Constitution dealing with Eucharistic liturgy (I agree that other sections of Hippolytus' AT/C can only be dated to c.400AD); I'll repreduce the relevant sections of the Didascalia in my next post]
 
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bound

New Member
Matt Black said:
I would disagree that the only extants we have are post-300AD; most of the MSS granted come from c.400AD but there are elements preserved in Hippolytus, which puts it a century or so before the Constantinian Settlement.

Do you're research. You will not find an extant of this Liturgy post-300 AD but like I said Justin Martyr is clearly outlining a structure to the early Church Liturgy and we all can easily lay claim to be following that.

[ETA - you also forgot about the Didache, which may well predate the Gospels]

I haven't forgotten. Just remember the promise and hope in the Lord. All this other stuff is helpful or harmful as it draws one to or causes one to stray from that which we have in Jesus Christ.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
(From the Didascalia Apostolorum, Book 7:

A MYSTICAL THANKSGIVING.
XXXV. Be ye always thankful, as faithful and honest servants; and concerning the eucharistical thanksgiving say thus: (5) We thank Thee, our Father, for that life which Thou hast made known to us by Jesus Thy Son, by whom Thou madest all things, and takest care of the whole world; whom Thou hast sent to become man for our salvation; whom Thou hast permitted to suffer and to die; whom Thou hast raised up, and been pleased to glorify, and hast set Him down on Thy right band; by whom Thou hast promised us the resurrection of the dead. Do thou, O Lord Almighty, everlasting God, so gather together Thy Church from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom, as this corn was once scattered, and is now become one loaf. We also, our Father, thank Thee for the precious blood of Jesus Christ, which was shed for us and for His precious body, whereof we celebrate this representation, as Himself appointed us, "to show forth His death." (6) For through Him glory is to be given to Thee for ever. Amen. Let no one eat of these things that is not initiated; but those only who have been baptized into the death of the Lord. But if any one that is not initiated conceal himself, and partake of the same, "he eats eternal damnation;" (7) because, being not of the faith of Christ, he has partaken of such things as it is not lawful for him to partake of, to his own punishment. But if any one is a partaker through ignorance, instruct him quickly, and initiate him, that he may not go out and despise you.
A THANKSGIVING AT THE DIVINE PARTICIPATION.
XXVI. After the participation, (8) give thanks in this manner: We thank thee, O God and Father of Jesus our Saviour, for Thy holy name, which Thou hast made to inhabit among us; and that knowledge, faith, love, and immortality which Thou hast given us through Thy Son Jesus. Thou, O Almighty Lord, the God of the universe, hast created the world, and the things that are therein, by Him; and hast planted a law in our souls, and beforehand didst prepare things for the convenience of men. O God of our holy and blameless fathers, Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, Thy faithful servants; Thou, O God, who art powerful, faithful, and true, and without deceit in Thy promises; who didst send upon earth Jesus Thy Christ to live with men, as a man, when He was God the Word, and man, to take away error by the roots: do Thou even now, through Him, be mindful of this Thy holy Church, which Thou hast purchased with the precious blood of Thy Christ, and deliver it from all evil, and perfect it in Thy love and Thy truth, and gather us all together into Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared. Let this Thy kingdom come. (9) "Hosanna to the Son of David. Blessed be He that cometh in the name of the Lord" (10)--God the Lord, who was manifested to us in the flesh. If any one be holy, let him draw near; but if any one be not such, let him become such by repentance.Permit also to your presbyters to give thanks.


(This is basically an expansion of the Didache's Eucharistic liturgy, with further borrowings from Jewish liturgical material)
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From the DA, Book 8:

THE CONSTITUTION OF JAMES THE BROTHER OF JOHN, THE SON OF ZEBEDEE.
Click to see notes by Justin Martyr where it is supposed that he did not even mention singing as an "act of worship."
XII. And I James, (7) the brother of John, the son of Zebedee, say, that the deacon shall immediately say, Let none of the catechumens, let none of the hearers, let none of the unbelievers, let none of the heterodox, stay here. You who have prayed the foregoing prayer, depart. (8) Let the mothers receive their children; let no one have anything against any one; let no one come in hypocrisy; let us stand upright before the Lord with fear and trembling, to offer. When this is done, let the deacons bring the gifts to the bishop at the altar; and let the presbyters stand on his right hand, and on his left, as disciples stand before their Master. But let two of the deacons, on each side of the altar, hold a fan, made up of thin membranes, or of the feathers of the peacock, or of fine cloth, and let them silently drive away the small animals that fly about, that they may not come near to the cups. Let the high priest, therefore, together with the priests, pray (9) by himself; and let him put on his shining garment, and stand at the altar, and make the sign of the cross upon his forehead with his hand, (10) and say: The grace of Almighty God, and the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. And let all with one voice say: And with thy spirit. The high priest: Lift up your mind. All the people: We lift it up unto the Lord. The high priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord. All the people: It is meet and right so to do.
You will notice that this HYMN is not a song but really a prayer which recites the power and majesty of God. In short, it teaches the Biblical message:
Then let the high priest say: It is very meet and fight before all things to sing an hymn to Thee, who art the true God, who art before all beings, "from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named;"
(11) who only art unbegotten, and without beginning, and without a ruler, and without a master; who standest in need of nothing; who art the bestower of everything that is good; who art beyond all cause and generation; who art alway and immutably the same; from whom all things came into being, as from their proper original. For Thou art eternal knowledge, everlasting sight, unbegotten hearing, untaught wisdom, the first by nature, and the measure of being, and beyond all number; who didst bring all things out of nothing into being by Thy only begotten Son, but didst beget Him before all ages by Thy will, Thy power, and Thy goodness, without any instrument, the only begotten Son, God the Word, the living Wisdom, "the First-born of every creature, the angel of Thy Great Counsel," (1) and Thy High Priest, but the King and Lord of every intellectual and sensible nature, who was before all things, by whom were all things. For Thou, O eternal God, didst make all things by Him, and through Him it is that Thou vouchsafest Thy suitable providence over the whole world; for by the very same that Thou bestowedst being, didst Thou also bestow well-being: the God and Father of Thy only begotten Son, who by Him didst make before all things the cherubim and the seraphim, the aeons and hosts, the powers and authorities, the principalities and thrones, the archangels and angels; and after all these, didst by Him make this visible world, and all things that are therein. For Thou art He who didst frame the heaven as an arch, and "stretch it out like the covering of a tent," (2) and didst found the earth upon nothing by Thy mere will; who didst fix the firmament, and prepare the night and the day; who didst bring the light out of Thy treasures, and on its departure didst bring on darkness, for the rest of the living creatures that move up and down in the world; who didst appoint the sun in heaven to rule over the day, and the moon to rule over the night,
and didst inscribe in heaven the choir of stars to praise Thy glorious majesty; who didst make the water for drink and for cleansing, the air in which we live for respiration and the affording of sounds, by the means of the tongue, which strikes the air, and the hearings which co-operates therewith, so as to perceive speech when it is received by it, and falls upon it; who madest fire for our consolation in darkness, for the supply of our want, and that we might be warmed and enlightened by it; who didst separate the great sea from the land, and didst render the former navigable and the latter fit for walking, and didst replenish the former with small and great living creatures, and filledst the latter with the same, both tame and wild; didst furnish it with various plants, and crown it with herbs, and beautify it with flowers, and enrich it with seeds; who didst ordain the great deep, and on every side madest a mighty cavity for it, which contains seas of salt waters heaped together,
(3) yet didst Thou every way bound them with barriers of the smallest sand; (4) who sometimes dost raise it to the height of mountains by the winds, and sometimes dost smooth it into a plain; sometimes dost enrage it with a tempest, and sometimes dost still it with a calm, that it may be easy to seafaring men in their voyages; who didst encompass this world, which was made by Thee through Christ, with rivers, and water it with currents, and moisten it with springs that never fail, and didst bind it round with mountains for the immoveable and secure consistence of the earth: for Thou hast replenished Thy world, and adorned it with sweet-smelling and with healing herbs, with many and various living creatures, strong and weak, for food and for labour, tame and wild; with the noises of creeping things, the sounds of various sorts of flying creatures; with the circuits of the years, the numbers of months and days, the order of the seasons, the courses of the rainy clouds, for the production of the fruits and the support of living creatures. Thou hast also appointed the station of the winds, which blow when commanded by Thee, and the multitude of the plants and herbs. And Thou hast not only created the world itself, but hast also made man for a citizen of the world, exhibiting him as the ornament of the world; for Thou didst say to Thy Wisdom: "Let us make man according to our image, and according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowls of the heaven." (5) Wherefore also Thou hast made him of an immortal soul and of a body liable to dissolution--the former out of nothing, the latter out of the four elements--and hast given him as to his soul rational knowledge, the discerning of piety and impiety, and the observation of right and wrong; and as to his body, Thou hast granted him five senses and progressive motion: for Thou, O God Almighty, didst by Thy Christ plant a paradise in Eden, (6) in the east, adorned with all plants fit for food, and didst introduce him into it, as into a rich banquet. And when Thou madest him, Thou gavest him a law implanted within him, that so he might have at home and within himself the seeds of divine knowledge; and when Thou hadst brought him into the paradise of pleasure, Thou allowedst him the privilege of enjoying all things, only forbidding the tasting of one tree, in hopes of greater blessings; that in case he would keep that command, he might receive the reward of it, which was immortality. But when he neglected that command, and tasted of the forbidden fruit, by the seduction of the serpent and the counsel of his wife, Thou didst justly cast him out of paradise. Yet of Thy goodness.
(TBC)
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
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DA, Book 8, continued:

Thou didst not overlook him, nor suffer him to perish utterly, for he was Thy creature; but Thou didst subject the whole creation to him, and didst grant him liberty to procure himself food by his own sweat and labours, whilst Thou didst cause all the fruits of the earth to spring up, to grow, and to ripen. But when Thou hadst laid him asleep for a while, Thou didst with an oath call him to a restoration again, didst loose the bond of death, and promise him life after the resurrection. And not this only; but when Thou hadst increased his posterity to an innumerable multitude, those that continued with Thee Thou didst glorify, and those who did apostatize from Thee Thou didst punish. And while Thou didst accept of the sacrifice of Abel (1) as of an holy person, Thou didst reject the gift of Cain, the murderer of his brother, as of an abhorred wretch. And besides these, Thou didst accept of Seth and Enos, (2) and didst translate Enoch: (3) for Thou art the Creator of men, and the giver of life, and the supplier of want, and the giver of laws, and the rewarder of those that observe them, and the avenger of those that transgress them; who didst bring the great flood upon the world by reason of the multitude of the ungodly, (4) and didst deliver righteous Noah from that flood by an ark, (5) with eight souls, the end of the foregoing generations, and the beginning of those that were to come; who didst kindle a fearful fire against the five cities of Sodom, and "didst turn a fruitful land into a salt lake for the wickedness of them that dwelt therein," (6) but didst snatch holy Lot out of the conflagration. Thou art He who didst deliver Abraham from the impiety of his fore-fathers, and didst appoint him to be the heir of the world, and didst discover to him Thy Christ; who didst aforehand ordain Melchisedec an high priest for Thy worship; (7) who didst render Thy patient servant Job the conqueror of that serpent who is the patron of wickedness; who madest Isaac the son of the promise, and Jacob the father of twelve sons, and didst increase his posterity to a multitude, and bring him into Egypt with seventy-five souls. (8) Thou, O Lord, didst not overlook Joseph, but grantedst him, as a reward of his chastity for Thy sake, the government over the Egyptians. Thou, O Lord, didst not overlook the Hebrews when they were afflicted by the Egyptians, on account of the promises made unto their fathers; but Thou didst deliver them and punish the Egyptians. (9) And when men had corrupted the law of nature, and had sometimes esteemed the creation the effect of chance, and sometimes honoured it more than they ought, and equalled it to the God of the universe, Thou didst not, however, suffer them to go astray, but didst raise up Thy holy servant Moses, and by him didst give the written law for the assistance of the law of nature, (10) and didst show that the creation was Thy work, and didst banish away the error of polytheism. Thou didst adorn Aaron and his posterity with the priesthood, and didst punish the Hebrews when they sinned, and receive them again when they returned to Thee. Thou didst punish the Egyptians with a judgment of ten plagues, and didst divide the sea, and bring the Israelites through it, and drown and destroy the Egyptians who pursued after them. Thou didst sweeten the bitter water with wood; Thou didst bring water out of the rock of stone; Thou didst rain manna from heaven, and quails, as meat out of the air; Thou didst afford them a pillar of fire by night to give them light, and a pillar of a cloud by day to overshadow them from the heat; Thou didst declare Joshua to be the general of the army, and didst overthrow the seven nations of Canaan by him; (11) Thou didst divide Jordan, and dry up the rivers of Etham; (12)
Thou didst overthrow walls without instruments or the hand of man. (13) For all these things, glory be to Thee, O Lord Almighty. Thee do the innumerable hosts of angels, archangels, thrones, dominions, principalities, authorities, and powers, Thine everlasting armies, adore. The cherubim and the six-winged seraphim, with twain covering their feet, with twain their heads, and with twain flying, (14) say, together with thousand thousands of archangels, and ten thousand times ten thousand of angels, (15) incessantly, and with constant and loud voices, and let all the people say it with them: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord of hosts, heaven and earth are full of His glory: be Thou blessed for ever. Amen." (16) And afterwards let the high priest say: For Thou art truly holy, and most holy, the highest and most highly exalted for ever. Holy also is Thy only begotten Son our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, who in all things ministered to His God and Father, both in Thy various creation and Thy suitable providence, and has not overlooked lost mankind. But after the law of nature, after the exhortations in the positive law, after the prophetical reproofs and the government of the angels, when men had perverted both the positive law and that of nature, and had cast out of their mind the memory of the flood, the burning of Sodom, the plagues of the Egyptians, and the slaughters of the inhabitant of Palestine, and being just ready to perish universally after an unparalleled manner, He was pleased by Thy good will to become man, who was man's Creator; to be under the laws, who was the Legislator; to be a sacrifice, who was an High Priest; to be a sheep, who was the Shepherd. And He appeased Thee, His God and Father, and reconciled Thee to the world, and freed all men from the wrath to come, and was made of a virgin, and was in flesh, being God the Word, the beloved Son, the first-born of the whole creation, and was, according to the prophecies which were foretold concerning Him by Himself, of the seed of David and Abraham, of the tribe of Judah. And He was made in the womb of a virgin, who formed all mankind that are born into the world; He took flesh, who was without flesh; He who was begotten before time, was born in time; He lived holily, and taught according to the law; He drove away every sickness and every disease from men, and wrought signs and wonders among the people; and He was partaker of meat, and drink, and sleep, who nourishes all that stand in need of food, and "fills every living creature with His goodness;" (1) "He manifested His name to those that knew it not;" (2) He drave away ignorance; He revived piety, and fulfilled Thy will; He finished the work which Thou gavest Him to do; and when He had set all these things right, He was seized by the hands of the ungodly, of the high priests and priests, falseIy so called, and of the disobedient people, by the betraying of him who was possessed of wickedness as with a confirmed disease; He suffered many things from them, and endured all sorts of ignominy by Thy permission; He was delivered to Pilate the governor, and He that was the Judge was judged, and He that was the Saviour was condemned; He that was impassible was nailed to the cross, and He who was by nature immortal died, and He that is the giver of life was buried, that He might loose those for whose sake He came from suffering and death, and might break the bonds of the devil, and deliver mankind from his deceit. He arose from the dead the third day; and when He had continued with His disciples forty days, He was taken up into the heavens, and is sat down on the right hand of Thee, who art His God and Father. Being mindful, therefore, of those things that He endured for our sakes, we give Thee thanks, O God Almighty, not in such a manner as we ought, but as we are able, and fulfil His constitution: "For in the same night that He was betrayed, He took bread" (3) in His holy and undefiled hands, and, looking up to Thee His God and Father, "He brake it, and gave it to His disciples, saying, This is the mystery of the new covenant: take of it, and eat. This is my body, which is broken for many, for the remission of sins." (4) In like manner also "He took the cup," and mixed it of wine and water, and sanctified it, and delivered it to them, saying: "Drink ye all of this; for this is my blood which is shed for many, for the remission of sins: do this in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup, ye do show forth my death until I come." Being mindful, therefore, of His passion, and death, and resurrection from the dead, and return into the heavens, and His future second appearing, wherein He is to come with glory and power to judge the quick and the dead, and to recompense to every one according to his works, we offer to Thee, our King and our God, according to His constitution, this bread and this cup, giving Thee thanks, through Him, that Thou hast thought us worthy to stand before Thee, and to sacrifice to Thee; and we beseech Thee that Thou wilt mercifully look down upon these gifts which are here set before Thee, O Thou God, who standest in need of none of our offerings. And do Thou accept them, to the honour of Thy Christ, and send down upon this sacrifice Thine Holy Spirit, the Witness of the Lord Jesus' sufferings, that He may show this bread to be the body of Thy Christ, and the cup to be the blood of Thy Christ, that those who are partakers thereof may be strengthened for piety, may obtain the remission of their sins, may be delivered from the devil and his deceit, may be filled with the Holy Ghost, may be made worthy of Thy Christ, and may obtain eternal, life upon Thy reconciliation to them, O Lord Almighty.
(attributed to Hippolytus)
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
bound said:
Do you're research. You will not find an extant of this Liturgy post-300 AD
Yes but see the DA - 250AD
but like I said Justin Martyr is clearly outlining a structure to the early Church Liturgy and we all can easily lay claim to be following that.
Interesting that you mention Justin, since he is on record as saying:

Justin Martyr said:
We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus

Since Justin clearly refers here to the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and since you claim that you can lay claim to be following that, then it follows that you believ in the Real Presence?



 

bound

New Member
Matt Black said:
Yes but see the DA - 250AD Interesting that you mention Justin, since he is on record as saying:

Since Justin clearly refers here to the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and since you claim that you can lay claim to be following that, then it follows that you believ in the Real Presence?

You will not get a big argument out of me regarding the mystery of the Lord's Supper. :laugh:

But don't ask me to define it.
 

bound

New Member
Matt Black said:
Indeed; as a good Anglican, my view on it is more Orthodox than Catholic!:laugh:

With that said could we agree that 'the real ecclesia' is the People of God and not simply an institutional body or tradition?
 
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