The real soteriological divide...

[grace56]

Catholics believe they are saved by Grace, but once saved the Holy Spirit gives Grace to do God's work.

 

[Matt Black]

See here for the Catholic view of justification, FWIW

 

[Pastor David]

From the RCC Catechism:

"Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life" (bolding mine).

This is why Luther stated the doctrine of justifcation by faith alone is the doctrine on which the church stands or falls.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

From the RCC Catechism:

"Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life" (bolding mine).

This is why Luther stated the doctrine of justifcation by faith alone is the doctrine on which the church stands or falls.

Matt's connector shows by faith and baptism. Luther also tried to get ride of the epistles of James calling it a straw letter. Faith is given by God and baptism inserts the believer into the body of Christ. That is the Romanish belief.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Does your faith come from man or from God?

The Bible says that God has dealt to every man the measure of faith. It also tells me that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So I think there is little doubt that it comes from God. But that does not answer the question as to why faith is not works when considering it for salvation but it is works when you consider it for maintaining salvation.

It appears to me that the gap is not works for maintaining salvation but if we believe God's call is irresistable or not.

 

[Pastor David]

Probably the best way to describe the relationships here is that in the RCC there is no ambiguity about the mixture of works and faith regarding salvation. In the Calvinistic scheme, they allow for no prevenient grace, no addition of works in salvation. And the Arminian/Wesleyian view they lie in various places in the middle, some openly admitting to the addition of works to faith while others seemingly wanting to deny it while holding strongly to man's own responsibilities as concerning his salvation.

 

[Pastor David]

I believe the Westminister Confession gives us the clearest expression of Biblical teaching here:

"Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God."

And it goes on to explain faith's relationship to works:

"Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love."

 

[Matt Black]

From the RCC Catechism:

"Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life" (bolding mine).

This is why Luther stated the doctrine of justifcation by faith alone is the doctrine on which the church stands or falls.

What about this, then:

The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

?

 

[Pastor David]

What about this, then:

?

I agree with you, this RCC double-talk is quite confusing, ambiguous, and typical of Romish doctrine. The first work of grace according to historic Reformed Protestant doctrine is regeneration. Rome has already denied the need for repentance by their teachings of salvation through baptism, not repentance. Then there is their confusion of justification and sanctification. Take this section of the RCC's Catechism on Justification,

Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

Now compare that to the WCF on sanctification,

They who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened, in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Justification and Sanctification should be viewed as two seperate and distinct acts of grace, one effecting salvation in Christ, the other effecting growth in Christ.

Here are a few more quotes from the RCC Catechism for information purposes:

"Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament"

"The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory"

And trhen the veneration of Mary,

"But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary":306 in her, the Church is already the "all-holy."

None of this to mention the continued intermedial work of the Catholic priesthood, in forgiving sins, and proclaming absolution from sin, and therefore the implicit denial of the priesthood of all believers (I Pet. 2:9)

 

[Pastor David]

What about this, then:

?

I agree with you, this RCC double-talk is quite confusing, ambiguous, and typical of Romish doctrine. The first work of grace according to historic Reformed Protestant doctrine is regeneration. Rome has already denied the need for repentance by their teachings of salvation through baptism, not repentance. Then there is their confusion of justification and sanctification. Take this section of the RCC's Catechism on Justification,

Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

Now compare that to the WCF on sanctification,

They who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened, in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Justification and Sanctification should be viewed as two seperate and distinct acts of grace, one effecting salvation in Christ, the other effecting growth in Christ.

Here are a few more quotes from the RCC Catechism for information purposes:

"Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament"

"The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory"

And then the veneration of Mary,

"But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary":306 in her, the Church is already the "all-holy."

None of this to mention the continued intermedial work of the Catholic priesthood, in forgiving sins, and proclaming absolution from sin, and therefore the implicit denial of the priesthood of all believers (I Pet. 2:9)

 

[billwald]

Most "reformed" people are NOT Calvinists

Most people who claim to be "reformed" have never read Calvin. They read Presbyterian theological statements.

People who accept Luther's theology are called "Lutherans," not "reformed." <G>

 

[DHK]

...is, I submit, not between Catholicism and evangelicalism/Protestantism but within Protestantism itself, between Calvinists and Arminians. Only the Reformed can correctly say that they believe that salvation is sola gratia, by grace alone, with no human co-operation; both Arminians and Catholics on the contrary speak of the need for human co-operation with grace. Arminians and Catholics allow for free will, Calvinists do not. Both Arminians and Catholics allow for the possibility of salvation being subsequently lost, Calvinists believe in 'once saved always saved'. This Arminian free exercise of the human will in maintaining salvation amounts in practice to a 'work', and thus Arminians cannot in reality be said to be sola fide, any more than Catholics can, but rather believe in salvation by faith maintained and outworked by works. The Reformed, however, can be said to believe sola fide. Therefore I would suggest that Catholics and Arminians have far more in common soteriologically than either does with the Calvinists.

The premise is flawed from the beginning.
It assumes that if one is not a Calvinist he is an Arminian, and vice-versa.
That statement is not true. If one is not a Calvinist (like me), that doesn't make him an Arminian (for I am not an Arminian either).
Starting with a flawed premise will only lead to a flawed conclusion.

 

[Jerome]

"Away with the idea that believing sound doctrine and chaining ourselves to a cast-iron creed is vital godliness and eternal life! Orthodox sinners will find that hell is hot, and that their knowledge of predestination will not yield a cooling drop to their parched tongues. Condemning other people, cutting off the saints of God right and left, is but poor virtue, and to have these blessed doctrines in the head while neglecting them in the heart is anything but a gracious sign." ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[Matt Black]

The premise is flawed from the beginning.
It assumes that if one is not a Calvinist he is an Arminian, and vice-versa.
That statement is not true. If one is not a Calvinist (like me), that doesn't make him an Arminian (for I am not an Arminian either).
Starting with a flawed premise will only lead to a flawed conclusion.

Your point is well taken. However, would you not agree that there is a soteriological gulf between a 5-point TULIP Calvinist and, say, a Wesleyan Arminian or the issue under discussion on this thread?

 

[Bro. James]

Jesus said He has not lost one of them (His sheep), save one; and that He would never leave them nor forsake them.

This was recorded long before Jon Chauvin, Jacobus Arminius and Constantine, the great one at Nicea.

God gives the faith. It is ours only as a gift. It does not originate in an individual. He is faithful to His promises--even when we are wavering by every wind of doctrine.This is the major point in understanding salvation of the spirit. There are no works to get salvation nor to keep salvation. Jesus paid it all--the work is done.

A child can understand.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Pastor David]

Your point is well taken. However, would you not agree that there is a soteriological gulf between a 5-point TULIP Calvinist and, say, a Wesleyan Arminian or the issue under discussion on this thread?

Sure, there are theological differences between every individual Christian. But the distance between various Protestant views is much narrower than the gulf that exist between all Protestant and Roman Catholic doctrine.

 

[Matt Black]

I would disagree: I would say that the differences between Arminian and Catholic soteriologies are smaller than those between Arminian and TULIP soteriologies.

 

[Jerome]

"Before our conviction we could fight for names, like mercenaries for other men’s countries. The mottoes of our party were higher in our esteem than the golden rules of Christianity; . . . We hated popery, but were essentially papistical; for we could have joined His Unholiness in all his anathemas, if he would but have hurled them against those who differed from us. We too did, in our own fashion, curse by bell, book, and candle, all who were not of our faith and order; and could scarcely think it possible that many attained salvation beyond the pale of our Church, or that Jesus deigned to give them so much as a transient visit." ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[Jerome]

"How changed we were when, by Divine grace, the sectarianism of our ungodliness did hide its head for shame! We then thought that we would go among Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Independents, Presbyterians, or anywhere, so that we could but find a Redeemer for our guilty souls." ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[Pastor David]

I would disagree: I would say that the differences between Arminian and Catholic soteriologies are smaller than those between Arminian and TULIP soteriologies.

Straight from the horse's mouth,

"I am not conscious to myself, of having taught or entertained any other sentiments concerning the justification of man before God, than those which are held unanimously by the Reformed and Protestant Churches, and which are in complete agreement with their expressed opinions." ~ Jacob Arminius, The Works of Jacob Arminius Vol. 1