The reason God cannot sin

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Luke2427 http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1648403#post1648403

Or is it because he is the measure of right and wrong and what he does is simply always right no matter what it is- it is right simply because he does it.
What do you think?

Not possible, and totally fatalistic theology. Belief in an unchanging eternal truth and righteousness is foundational toward belief in God.

Your reasoning consists of:

If an all-powerful and unchanging God exists, He must be Truth.

Truth can change because God is all powerful.

Therefore, God (as Truth) must be both, changing and unchanging, existing one moment and not existing the next. God has the power to do this because He is all-mighty powerful God. How God does this is a mystery, but He does it because He can.

Problem:

Now prove that you believe in “truth” that Truth is exists and is an eternal unchanging attribute of God, you can’t; as a matter of fact you just proved by your own reasoning that you believe Truth does/must and is able to change! So what is the Truth?

How do you hold to there being a God of Truth, you can’t, by your own reasoning you can not always know what truth is because you claim it changes at His will. At best all you can claim is that this matter of truth is a mystery concerning a God of Truth. Therefore, within your reasoning how can anyone know God as a Truth? Your best evidence stands on the claim you know God as a mystery in the matter of truth.

Pure and simple fatalistic theology!

No way you can rationally make the claim that you know God as a Truth while claiming that Truth changes. In any logical sense eternal “truth” must stand as unchanging to be true. Logically, a belief in God must stand as Truth, or there is no real foundational truth in that belief. Truth is foundational to having faith/believing because without it there is not a cause for you to believe as being true.

I will say God is Truth, therefore I believe in a God of Truth.

You will have to say is God’s truth can change and this is a mystery, but I believe in this God as a mystery.

 

[Skandelon]

I agree 100% that that passage is speaking of judicial hardening and that it is impossible for God to lie.

But it is impossible for God to lie because he cannot speak a thing and it not come to pass. Not because he has declared lying to be a sin and suddenly since he made that declaration now he cannot do it.

But there is also a sense in which, whether through judicial hardening or other means, that God can intentionally cause someone to believe something that isn't so.

He can do this because he is God and the men who are deceived deserve to be.

Luke, I love you brother, but sometimes I think you out Calvin John Calvin and go further into deterministic/fatalistic views than Jonathan Edwards ever would:

When God is spoken of as hardening the hearts of some men, it is not to be understood that God was, in any way, the agent or direct cause of the hardening any man's heart. There is no positive act by God in the hardening process. To suppose any such thing would be to make God the immediate author of sin.

God is said to harden men in two ways:

A. First, by withholding the powerful influences of His Spirit, without which their hearts will remain hardened, and grow harder and harder-in this sense God hardens them, as He leaves them in their hardness. (like the cop who hides his presence behind trees so the speeder will keep speeding)

B. Secondly, God hardens men, by providentially ordering things which, by the continued sin of man, becomes the reason for their hardening. Thus God sends His word and commands to men and women which, they then ignore, thereby, confirming their hardening. So the apostle Paul said, that the gospel message he preached was to some people “the smell of death."

So God is represented as sending Isaiah to the people, to “Make the heart of the people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” [Isaiah 6:10] Isaiah's preaching was, in itself, a message imploring these people to turn from their ways and follow God and His word. But their rejection of God’s message caused it to be it an opportunity to further harden their hearts.

1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

God is said to harden men, that He put a lying spirit in the mouth of the false prophets. (2 Chronicles. 18:22). That is, He “allowed” a lying spirit to enter into them. And thus He is said to have told Shimei, a man from the same clan as Saul, to curse David. (2 Samuel 16:10). God did not directly command him to curse David; for it would be contrary to God's commands, for God has expressly said in His Word, “Do not . . . curse the ruler of your people.” [Exodus 22:28] But God “allowed” the evil to work in the heart of Shimei, and then sovereignly brought about the opportunity of stirring it up, as a manifestation of his displeasure against David.

 

[David Lamb]

Surely the reason it would be ridiculous to say that God could sin is because of what sin actually is - rebellion against God's will.

To say that God could sin would be to say that God is not God, because it would mean that something or someone could force Him to act against His own will.

 

[webdog]

God establishes that for MEN to lie it is sin.

God establishes that for MEN to kill it is murder.

God can and certainly DOES send strong delusion and he certainly does kill.

Jesus Christ is 100% Man.

Also, Jonathan lied to protect David and it was not a sin...and Rahab lied to protect the Israelite spies, and it was not sin. As I have stated, sin is a heart issue. Killing in itself is not sin, it's the motive behind it that can be.

 

[Aaron]

I agree, but that does not mean we have the same understanding. I am saying that God cannot say two plus two equals five, because that would be a falsehood. But if I understand Luke correctly (at least this is the impression I got), he is saying God could say two plus two equals five and it would be the truth.

Is that what you believe?

Who knows that He hasn't? What if two plus two was three and God said otherwise? It is now a natural, physical reality from the beginning.

But that's not what God has done. God cannot lie. Christ is His Word, and His Word is as unchanging and eternal as He is. These trifiling sophistries are the foolish arguments of vain and puffed up minds.

 

[Aaron]

Also, Jonathan lied to protect David and it was not a sin...and Rahab lied to protect the Israelite spies, and it was not sin. As I have stated, sin is a heart issue. Killing in itself is not sin, it's the motive behind it that can be.

Misleading God's enemies to protect innocent life is not lying.

 

[webdog]

Misleading God's enemies to protect innocent life is not lying.

Call it what you will, they deliberately told a falsehood, the very definition of lie.

 

[webdog]

Who knows that He hasn't? What if two plus two was three and God said otherwise? It is now a natural, physical reality from the beginning.

Unbelievable...

 

[Aaron]

Call it what you will, they deliberately told a falsehood, the very definition of lie.

Lying is "bearing false witness AGAINST thy neighbor."

 

[Aaron]

Unbelievable...

Gotta read that statement in context. That does require a certain reading comprehension level—probably fifth grade or higher.

 

[webdog]

Gotta read that statement in context. That does require a certain reading comprehension level—probably fifth grade or higher.

I did read it in context. Unbelievable.

 

[webdog]

Lying is "bearing false witness AGAINST thy neighbor."

That is one way to lie, but is not the definition of lying. Get yourself a good dictionary.

 

[Aaron]

The Commandment defines the concept.

 

[Aaron]

I did read it in context. Unbelievable.

Well then you'd know that I refuted that notion in the very next paragraph.

 

[Luke2427]

I disagree with you Luke, God cannot just do anything he wants and that makes it right.

In John 8:55 Jesus said he knows the Father, and says, "IF I SHOULD SAY, I KNOW HIM NOT, I SHALL BE A LIAR LIKE UNTO YOU"

So Jesus is bound by the truth, he cannot say whatever he wants. If God lied, he would be a sinner like us.

That verse tells us that God is no liar. We already knew that.

The question is- why?

Is it because there is a standard which God must follow?

Is it because God IS the standard? It is not lying if HE does it.

He can send strong delusions and spirits of deception and it not be lying.

That is what the Bible teaches. Your choice is to either accept it as it is in the Word of God or deny it and twist it to suit your fancy.

 

[Luke2427]

Not possible, and totally fatalistic theology. Belief in an unchanging eternal truth and righteousness is foundational toward belief in God.

Your reasoning consists of:

If an all-powerful and unchanging God exists, He must be Truth.

Truth can change because God is all powerful.

Therefore, God (as Truth) must be both, changing and unchanging, existing one moment and not existing the next. God has the power to do this because He is all-mighty powerful God. How God does this is a mystery, but He does it because He can.

Problem:

Now prove that you believe in “truth” that Truth is exists and is an eternal unchanging attribute of God, you can’t; as a matter of fact you just proved by your own reasoning that you believe Truth does/must and is able to change! So what is the Truth?

How do you hold to there being a God of Truth, you can’t, by your own reasoning you can not always know what truth is because you claim it changes at His will. At best all you can claim is that this matter of truth is a mystery concerning a God of Truth. Therefore, within your reasoning how can anyone know God as a Truth? Your best evidence stands on the claim you know God as a mystery in the matter of truth.

Pure and simple fatalistic theology!

No way you can rationally make the claim that you know God as a Truth while claiming that Truth changes. In any logical sense eternal “truth” must stand as unchanging to be true. Logically, a belief in God must stand as Truth, or there is no real foundational truth in that belief. Truth is foundational to having faith/believing because without it there is not a cause for you to believe as being true.

I will say God is Truth, therefore I believe in a God of Truth.

You will have to say is God’s truth can change and this is a mystery, but I believe in this God as a mystery.

This is good work and I agree with most of it.

It just does not address the subject matter at hand.

God IS eternal truth. That is absolutely correct.

But it has very little to do with answering the question of the op.

Why is it that God CANNOT sin.

Is it because there is some standard that the Almighty must observe?

Or is it because he IS the standard and can do as he pleases and whatever he does is right BECAUSE HE is the one doing it?

Or is there another option?

 

[Luke2427]

Certainly you are not equating God's sending a "strong delusion" with God lying, are you?

Titus 1:2
a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

Hebrews 6:18
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

The passage you are referring to is:

2 Thess 2:11: 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

For what reason does God send them a delusion? Because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. This is a prime example of judicial hardening by which God gives rebellious men over to their own lusts. This in NO WAY suggests God is a liar, which you seem to be implying here. I can't believe I'm even needing to make this argument.

You can't believe it because you are overreacting.

God is no liar.

But it does not matter for what reason he sends strong delusion. The point is that he DOES.

That is not lying, BTW, for God. But it IS for you and I.

1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.


Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That verse tells us that God is no liar. We already knew that.

The question is- why?

Is it because there is a standard which God must follow?

Is it because God IS the standard? It is not lying if HE does it.

He can send strong delusions and spirits of deception and it not be lying.

That is what the Bible teaches. Your choice is to either accept it as it is in the Word of God or deny it and twist it to suit your fancy.

Reminds me of a closing comment made by Doctor Albert Mohler in his address to Ligonier 2009.... " God speaks and you Listen"

 

[Skandelon]

You can't believe it because you are overreacting.

God is no liar.

But it does not matter for what reason he sends strong delusion. The point is that he DOES.

That is not lying, BTW, for God. But it IS for you and I.

How is a cop hiding his presence so that the speeder, who already freely wants to speed, continues to speed?

It's not a lie for us and its not a lie for God to hide truth from rebellious people.

1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.


Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

And I already showed you Edwards remarks about these passages, which clearly are interpreted as to mean "allowed" them to continue in their lying etc...but it sounds like you won't even listen to your own.

Are there any other real Calvinists here who can talk to Luke about the error of his form of Calvinism? Maybe he will listen to you?

 

[Luke2427]

How is a cop hiding his presence so that the speeder, who already freely wants to speed, continues to speed?

It's not a lie for us and its not a lie for God to hide truth from rebellious people.

And I already showed you Edwards remarks about these passages, which clearly are interpreted as to mean "allowed" them to continue in their lying etc...but it sounds like you won't even listen to your own.

Are there any other real Calvinists here who can talk to Luke about the error of his form of Calvinism? Maybe he will listen to you?

You do not know Edwards. You have demonstrated that clearly.

All Calvinists on this board who have observed you know this to be true.

I think you are intelligent- don't get me wrong. I think you are the most consistent theologian who is not Reformed on baptistboard.

But you do not know Edwards at all.

God does allow and decree all things.

Just because someone notes that God does one does not negate that he also does the other.

Edwards is clear on this as has been shown to you repeatedly.

God bless!:wavey: