The reason I reject any form of decisional regeneration

You first said this parable was speaking of eternal salvation, Now it isn't????? </font>[/QUOTE]How does one have salvation without faith? NOT POSSIBLE! For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourselves it (SALVATION) is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Where does faith come from? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God!

The parable addresses FAITH, and FAITH what saves.

 

What? What?

How can there be any "established parameters"? This violates the freedom of the individuals for whom the "benevolent dictator" [ ] has provided an environment in which they are permitted to make choices freely, yet he has also 'established parameters'?

Contradiction, Contradiction, Contradiction.

Bro.Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]God made man with parameters. Man cannot fly under his own power with his own flesh, he needs something more than he has in order to fly. Therefore an established parameter is that man does not fly! Thus limiting his free will that wants to fly. That is why I said in earlier posts that man has free will within the environment that God established for man.

Part of the established parameters God made man to exist within, includes the ability to choose, to accept or reject that which is set before man.

I wish you would convince me that you are truly not as stupid concerning God's creation and things of the spirit, as some of your posts make you out to be.

 

You have not been reading my posts very well if you think that is my position on man. I simply do not believe scriptures reveal that man was altered from what God made man to be, and to be able to do. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. Does man sin? Absolutely! Is man Totally Depraved? Absolutely NOT!

Was man made to be able to usurp the throne of God? Again Absolutely NOT! Was man Made to be able to Hear the word of God, and is man able to believe in God? YES! and YES?

Total Depravity says that man is not able to hear or believe without first being "regenerated", what ever that may mean. According to Scriptures, that is "the cart before the horse"

The Holy Scripures say that when man hears and believes, man becomes a new creation, and that in Jesus all things are made new.

We read into scriptures what we want to be there. But only one position produces the correct result.

 

Yelsew,

I have read all your posts and cannot find anywhere where you admit or believe that the Holy Spirit plays any direct part in the Salvation of an individual soul.

In other words you seem to believe in a sterile salvation.

1. God has done all that is necessary for the salvation of men.

2. He has sent his Son and Preserved his Word.

3. He has instructed Christians to Preach the Word.

4. When a Man hears or reads the Word he is equally ABLE with all other men who are exposed to the Gospel - to Believe or not believe apart from any direct intervention of the Spirit who generally and indirectly illuminates the truth to all.

In other words God does NOTHING internally in the life of an individual man until he BELIEVES - He has placed the man's mind and soul off limits until the man believes.

When a Man Believes - Exercises his Will in Faith - God rushes in to regenerate him.

Where have I misread and misunderstood your basic beliefs about Salvation?

 

Im puzzled myself how anybody who doesnt have "spiritual ears" to hear, can even hear the gospel.

"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."

or for that matter said another way.

how can someone that is "spiritually dead" have ears that are "spiritually alive" and capable of functioning correctly. or a "spiritually dead mind" that is capable of being "spiritually alive" and capable of making "faith decisions", to accept the Gospel as truth, as opposed to a lie.

seems to me that a change MUST first occur.

as in first GOD giving MAN a "spiritually alive" spirit to the new believer to allow them to hear with ears that are "spiritually alive".

then can the statements "repent and believe" be heard by the believer. with spiritual ears that are "alive and working correctly"


Ive heard that man hears the gospel, ie.. the written words with his physical ears....

correctly said, thats "mans spirit hearing Gods spirit". Not mans physical ears hearing some written or spoken words in a book or a message about God..

Me2

 

I guess you must think that "my God" is only Jehovah, and does not include his Son AND the HOLY SPIRIT. Well set that aside, MY GOD is ELOHIM, who is God is THREE persons. FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. When I say that God has done all the work and man must choose, I mean just that FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT has done all the work.

When I say, "man must choose", I am not giving man anything that God did not give man! I am simply stating what God has already done in man, and that is providing the word, by which man chooses to believe or not believe, or simply to passively set aside for some "future possible consideration", which if man dies before making a choice, the passive choice he/she made stands.

 

"If any man has ears to hear" Why would this be written in the Word of God if it is not possible for man to hear without first being "regenerated"? This does not mean that man cannot hear, but rather, "those who do hear", you know, the WHOSOEVERS that you so eagerly overlook.

 

Yelsew,

my desires are simply to speak about building strong foundations within believers that are based on the truth.

It begins with understanding that man in and of himself is lost without the intervention of God and God alone.

that God chooses each believer and imparts his righteous spirit within them. causing self to focus on the personal and eternal bond between God and Man. the action also signifies that God is in the driver seat of Our Life and its destiny.
not our individual will nor anything that is outside of Gods control..which is nothing.

To harm us as "children of God". the enemy must Go through God first.

but the recognition that God has given us of his Son's spirit is vital in our foundational belief structure. Not only is the Holy Spirit indwelling man. but that Man has had his cursed carnal spirit replaced with another spirit. the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

If the spirit of God is "within" us. then we have spiritual ears that can hear God when he speaks.
the word spoken to man is always in a spiritual format. and it is specifically directed to those God has in Mind to hear it and NNE ELSE.

or else he would not has emphatically stated. "for those who have ears to hear"...he was speaking of the spiritual ears of the spirit of His son within the people he was directing the message towards.

think for a second.."whosoever" is limited to those who have the spirit and is hearing the invitation. no one else cares or understands about Who God is directing the "statements concerning Whosoever" towards.

Me2

 

I understand your motivation, and appreciate your confessed desire to speak only the truth. But, you overlook the work of God which includes providing his "Holy Word" through which all who are exposed to it will be judged. God's word is not just for some nebulous "elect" but for ALL who receive it by "hearing".

"Hearing" is not limited to physical auditory sensory perception, but includes every means by which man can receive, in his spirit, the word of God, whether it be by reading, listening, seeing, tasting, etc. Man must "hear", that is, take God's word to heart and make it the basis for his own life and living in order for the Faith that comes by "hearing" to take hold and grow within the man that results in a harvest of 30, 60 or 100 fold faith as explained by Jesus regarding the parable of the sower.

The final note of the story of Creation is that God rested, All of his work being completed. We are in that seventh day of the creation story. God's work is complete even the atonement for sins is completed, never to be repeated. The creation of MAN was completed in ADAM and EVE, there has been no additional creation nor has there been any modification of MAN. We remain exactly what God made us to be, though we are disobedient to our maker.

In God's rest, He determined for Himself that He would look upon his creation with FAVOR that his creation cannot earn and does not deserve. That is GRACE, and God's grace covers the evil and the good equally, and unselfishly. While God's grace prevails, the creation continues on the course God established before the foundation of the world. If it were not doing so, God would take action to "correct" it or destroy it according to HIS pleasure, as he did in the flood and in Sodom and Gomorrah.

It is during God's 'rest' that his WORD, which he established from before the foundation of the world, reaches the "world" and those who accept it grow in faith in God which Sanctifies them for Eternal life. Sanctification being the indelible "mark" that separates the sheep from the Goats. Since faith is the mark, man can erase the mark by returning to a state of having no faith in God. The scriptures state that as "a possibility".

Jesus, who is God the Son, states, in John 3:18, that those who have faith in God will not be judged, but that those who do not have faith are judged already by their lack of faith. In Revelation it is revealed that those who are judged will be cast into the lake of fire. Since those who have faith are not judged at all, they will not face the second death which the scriptures clearly define as being cast into the lake of Fire.

Scriptures say, "It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment. Well all mankind must die, which is the departure of the spirit of man, which scriptures say "is the life of the flesh", from the flesh, the first death! Those without faith face judgment, and are cast into the lake of fire which scriptures say is the second death.

There is no statement in Scripture that declares that righteous works bring salvation. There is also nothing in scripture that declares that anything except faith, separates the sheep from the goats. There is nothing in scripture that says "faith plus 'anything' saves". The conclusion one must arrive at, is that FAITH ALONE SAVES! Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the WORD OF GOD!

 

Yelsew, Let me see if can ask the right questions. I really believe we are getting close to the prime difference between Calvinists and Arminians.

Does God (and of course this includes all three persons of the trinity)interact personally with the unsaved?

At what point in the Salvation experience does God become personal to the believer?

What is it that causes one person to believe the Gospel and another in the same family to not believe it?

Is the Cause external or internal?

 

Hardsheller,

He already has before the person becomes personally aware of such. God created and then entered REST from work. Everthing God does for man has already been done.

at the point of the person's initial belief. Once belief, which is regeneration occurs, the Holy Spirit is then "free" to work in the life of the one believing, by the one's permission through belief.

What causes identical twins to behave differently from one another? What causes one child to become a doctor and another to be a bum? This is a question that can only be answered when one has virtually every element of knowledge that both of the individuals have and by which they individually make up their own minds. There simply is no 'one-liner' that answers this question. Two people raised in exactly the same environment eventually go their separate ways. Man must leave his mother and cleave to his wife, etc. If either of us had every element of knowledge, emotion, experience that those in question have, then the question would be answerable.

Unlike the previous question, this one can be answered with one word, BOTH! or the phrase, "all of the above"

 

OK,.. lets start with a thought. if man is cursed and destined for death. his body and spirit is to be destroyed. but the soul is neither positive or negative. its neutral. "it" can be salvaged if it is attached to another body and spirit.

When God imparts his new spirit to us. He also Imparts our spiritual body also. combining soul to both new body and new spirit. making a completely "new man".

but we have this faith problem..whos is "it"?

where does faith originate?
what is its properties?
does it eminate from the soul?
does it eminate from the spirit?
is it thought? reason? hope?
is its object, rational thought, knowledge, experienced reality, wishful thinking, deferred hope

we can go round and round with this. It appears that you really do not want to "know" the truth about Faith...

what you so resoundingly harp on is something produced of "the spirit". if you have a cursed carnal unrighteous spirit. It produces faith thats object of affection and worship is the cursed carnal and unrighteous works of the flesh. it cannot hear or see anything of God. It is cursed of God and is not capable of comprehending nor understanding anything of God...Especially any references to Knowledge of What is Good..

This spirit eminates DEAD Faith.

But God....We can be and will be imparted with a new spirit. It is righteous. It is eternal. It has already been declared by God our Father to be acceptable in his Presents. Innocent. Perfect.
It can comprehend and understand the knowledge of What is Good. It gravitates towards or is attracted to all that is of God because, the very spirit that God gives man is a part of God.

God speaks to those who can hear Him.
namely and only his own spirit. why?.

because the alternative is to speak to a cursed spirit that can neither hear nor comprehend or understand what is being spiritually said to it.

it is totaly depraved and incapable and does not even desire the spiritual things of God.

Your totaly right by saying it is "faith alone" that saves. the Faith of the spirit "within us".

the "faith of the Spirit of Christ".

(unless you think that your soul is producing this saving faith. I would have to say that sounds much like "adding to the salvic work of Christ".)

 

Yelsew,

Thank you for your candidness.

Now please tell me this.

If the Cause is both external and internal, describe the external working and the internal working that leads to individual and personal salvation.

What I'm hearing of External = God's Finished Work in past history.

What I'm hearing of Internal = Man's Faith apart from any present activity of the Holy Spirit.

Am I close to your view of Personal Salvation?

 

Do you have even a single thread of evidence that such is possible? A soul cannot jump from body to body! You are watching too many hokey sci-fi movies.

You are terribly confused regarding how we are made. We are spirit, in the image of God. God does not describe himself anywhere in scripture as a soul, therefore we should not think of ourselves as being a soul. We are spirit in the image of God whom Jesus told us is Spirit.

The writer of Hebrews describes faith thusly, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

Faith is not a physical thing that one can pick up and examine, nor is it a spirit. Faith is what one possesses when one believes that something exists, but has no way of proving it exists. Faith is also what one exhibits as evidence that what is hoped for will become the reality. That is, we do not know that there is a God! We cannot prove it no matter how hard we try. God alone has the ability to reveal His reality, but then He reveals himself only to those who have faith, and then only on the basis of faith. So What evidence do we present that there is a God? By acting out our faith.

We gain faith through "hearing", that is, taking into our inner man, the human spirit, that which we want to believe to be true, and evaluating it against that which we know inherently through "the Knowledge of good and evil" gained through Adam, to be false. If that which we want to be true evaluates to be true by not falling into the "false" category. We store it in our "truth" vault. When we have enough information to be persuaded that something, according to all we know about it, is trustworth, then we have "faith" in it.

How does one come about having this stuff called faith? By believing that an object deserving of our belief, but which is beyond our ability to prove, exists. When we believe that such an object exists, and that there are promises regarding that object are stated, then we have faith in the object based on the promises made for the object. We believe that after this life is over we will be "magically" transported to a place that we only have promises about. We cannot prove that place exists, but we have faith that it does. That faith causes us to live our natural lives in anticipation of the fulfillment of those promises.

Man is spirit! Until you recognize that, you will remain confused about spiritual truth.

Dead faith is faith that produces no spiritual fruit. Spiritual fruit is as Paul described it in his letter to the Corinthians. Dead faith is that faith which produces nothing good.

We are not given a new spirit, we retain the same spirit we were born to have, however, when we believe in God, we get a "regenerated" spirit. That is, our thinking is changed from having an evil bent, to having a righteous bent. That is called redemption when something that went bad, was made good through restoration, not by replacement. Jesus came to FIND and to SAVE that which was LOST, That is, He recovers that which was lost, He DOES NOT REPLACE that which was lost.

Jesus came to FIND what was LOST and SAVE IT! If, as you say, He replaces our spirit with HIS, he has not found anything, but simply replaced that which was lost. He has saved nothing! Replacement of something that was lost with something new, a "like item", is not FINDING or SAVING that which was lost!

SALVATION, which is defined as saving something, does not mean that you replace the item that was lost with another.

Salvation is like snatching something from the fire and not allowing it to be consumed in the fire. Or by preventing one from drowning by lifting the one into the boat. You don't save something by "replacing it".

NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE IS SALVATION DESCRIBED AS REPLACING THE OLD WITH SOMETHING NEW! SALVATION IS ALWAYS DESCRIBED AS AN ACT OF RETRIEVAL, RESTORATION OR PREVENTION, NEVER AS REPLACEMENT! When David said "Create in me a clean heart, oh God! He was not saying replace my heart, but rather make my heart renewed. Take the existing and renew it, refurbish it, restore it to what is once was.

Me2, until you understand that man is spirit, made in the image of God who is spirit, you will have great difficulty understanding the things of the spirit. That is not to say that the flesh does not count, but in the end the flesh gets left behind to decompose to its base elements to be scattered as dust by the winds wherever they blow. The true essence of man, spirit, separates from the flesh and is immediately either in the loving arms of Jesus, or before the judgment throne of God! The choice is yours based on your faith.

 

NO!

I do not think of salvation in that manner at all!

External: God's work is finished once for all time. TIME is relative to man only, for in Eternity there is no "TIME", There are no milestones, no odometers, no stopwatches or Big Ben's. When I say that God's work is finished I am speaking from the perspective of eternity. In the Old Testament we see "the past", and in the New Testament, we see "the future". But to God there is no past, and no future, God said that, "I AM", a reference to "the present" only. In God there is no past and there is no future, only the present which is Eternity.

Therefore, God's work is complete in the PRESENT!

Internal: The internal man, spirit, is what became corrupted by sin. Prior to sin in man, man's spirit was pure and sinless, and therefore holy and acceptable in the very presence of God who is pure and holy. God is SPIRIT, man is spirit made in the image of God! Sin entered into man and separated man's now sinful spirit from God who is pure and holy. God set out to redeem man by establishing law, which would show man what sin is, so that man could recognize his guilt, face the consequence of sin, and with remorse repent from sinning. God established blood sacrifice as a means by which man could atone for his sins. Even so, animal sacrifice is not what God was after in atonement. God wanted man to come to Him in faith, seeking forgiveness for having sinned. God's plan included a final "Once-for-All" atoning blood sacrifice, and by his own power caused a young "pure" virgin human to conceive in her womb a son who would be called Emmanuel, "God with us", who as the Lamb of God, Slain from the foundation of the world (a finished work), would become that final "Once-for-all" atonement for sin. So, once again, God's work of Salvation of mankind is a completed work.

"Man's faith apart from any present activity of the Holy Spirit" Hmmm, I don't believe that, and have never said such! So, I'm terribly sorry if that is what you derived from what I've said. Of Course the Holy Spirit is very much at work throughout the whole of mankind. The Holy Spirit makes it possible and in truth is the motivator behind Wycliff, and others to translate God's word into all the primary languages and most dialects of humanity, whereby man can hear the Word and believe.

The Holy Spirit is not about "regenerating" unwilling human spirits making them able to "hear"! All mankind is already enabled to hear the Word if it is available. Regeneration of human spirit comes from within, and is Called 'believing'. When one changes from unbeliever to believer, that is "regeneration", that is being "born from above, that is being "born again". It is when one believes that the Holy Spirit can reveals spiritual truth. Because until one believes in God, there is little value in "feeding pearls to the swine".

The Holy Spirit causes the unbeliever to confront the Word of God, or be confronted by the Word of God. But one must hear the word in order to believe, and by believing, be regenerated.

 

H Yelsew,

First let me say that Jesus did come to find the lost SOULS of men. which he does by joining his spirit to our souls.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Doesnt these scriptures speak of TWO Spirits?.

one righteous and the other unrighteous
christ and antichrist.

already in the world..how did it get here?.

we know christ spirit came through a virgin birth.
the spirit of antichrist by the way of Adams disobedience and Gods curse.

which we are all now born with. the antichrist spirit. within the bible, all of the enemies of God are catagorized under the "banner" of the antichrist spirit. the beast (antichrist),false prophet,satan..or we can call ..the world, flesh and devil, or in other places of the bible referred to as the lust of the flesh,lust of the eyes and pride of Life. all human beings have this spirit. all of these spirits are destined to be destroyed and replaced with the righteous spirit of Christ.

I call this spirit. the spirit of Carnal Flesh".
you can call it..the "spirit of Man" if you like.
it still has to be destroyed

and theres the master surgeon...

Heb 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

and dont say that the word of God is the bible. this verse is talking about the PERSON..THE WORD OF GOD.

but you have seem to overlook the truth hidden in a parable:

Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

the bottles represent the spiritual body and the wine..the spirit of God.
meaning our old spirit is to be replaced with a new righteous spirit..

cant put new wine in old bottles. bottles would burst. must have new bottles for new wine.

and you have said that man must die (judgement) to have their spirit and soul seperated.
well we did die. we were prematurally judged before our time and are given a second chance by God. all christians have been judged. found guilty, had their spirit and souls seperated and their old spirit destroyed. they have had the new righteous spirit of Christ joined with their soul and returned back into this life and times...
heres the tricky part. we have to believe this by faith of the spirit inside us as it expresses to us WHAT HAPPENED.

some "know" this. some dont. some can express it in words. some cant. it all depends on their level of understanding and what is happening to them within sanctification...

and whats your problem with hokey Sci-Fi.

where did man get those strange ideas from anyway?
...From God ?....

Me2