The Reasons Why I See No Need for Formal Minstry Education?!

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
We must learn that God never charged the public schools nor the private collegiate system with maintaining religious truth. That unique prerogative belongs to the church which alone is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Thanks. But I labored on for awhile and didn't say it as clearly as you in two sentences.

I tend to be wordy, and even at that I left out the qualifications for elders/bishops as found in I Tim. & Titus. This is another sure foundation underlying the concept.

 

[RayMarshall19]

Dear Mark and rl:

I love y'all. Keep it up. It saves me a lot of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[here now]

Originally posted by RayMarshall19:
Dear Mark and rl:

I love y'all. Keep it up. It saves me a lot of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll second that!

 

[El_Guero]

Rhet,

I appreciated that you pointed out that Boyce wanted an english language school for those that had not had the other lanugages.

I really like his vision.

 

[Dr. Bob]

"Get all the education you can, even if all you do is drive a mule. It will make all the more difference between you and the mule."

Sam Jones, Methodist Evangelist

I can see the result of LACK of a good education every day in the posts on the BB. Not just talking grammar or spelling (my disease affects my fingers, so I cut a lot of slack and assume folks DO know 7th grade spelling but just have trouble typing) - I'm talking understanding of hermeneutics, logic, apologetics and debate, biblical languages, theology, history, et al

 

[bapmom]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bapmom:
Rather I see people are trying to get out of this mode of requiring any and all preachers to be educated to the "nth" degree before they will listen to what that preacher has to say.

As an aside.....I still don't really get the difference between Bible college and seminary. Is seminary further education beyond Bible college?

If the pastor is the chief teacher should he not also be the best equipped to teach?

Seminary helped to improve my grammar and writing abilities. It also helped me to organize a sermon better. During the time I had in classes helped me to better care for people as well.

Seminary is a graduate school. Bible college is an undergraduate school. Seminary is typically more demanding than Bible college.

While I was in seminary, there was a student who sat next to me and worked for IBM and was attending seminary because he wanted to be a better Sunday School teacher. Imagine the attitude of a person like that compared to a pastor who thinks education is unimportant. </font>[/QUOTE]First of all, I know of no pastor who actually thinks education is unimportant. I was more speaking to the attitudes of the listeners rather than of the pastor's attitude. The preachers who mostly get accused of this attitude, I think are usually speaking to those listeners who's attitude is that education is equal to spiritual wisdom. Ive known men who's "education" was so lofty that they no longer could speak to the "common man", and in actuality lost their listeners because they no longer knew how to just talk to people.

Its this extreme that is being fought against. Those pastors who come across as being anti-education, actually have educations themselves.

I just see that there's such an emphasis placed on formal education that we forget that God uses many things to educate us.

School is good, but its not the be all and end all of a person's life or qualifications.

 

[El_Guero]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
"Get all the education you can, even if all you do is drive a mule. It will make all the more difference between you and the mule."

Sam Jones, Methodist Evangelist

I can see the result of LACK of a good education every day in the posts on the BB. Not just talking grammar or spelling (my disease affects my fingers, so I cut a lot of slack and assume folks DO know 7th grade spelling but just have trouble typing) - I'm talking understanding of hermeneutics, logic, apologetics and debate, biblical languages, theology, history, et al

C'mon Dr. Bob

Cut me a little slack will ya'?

 

[El_Guero]

More to the point, we need common sence (AKA horse sence) real badly in ministry. (Maybe mule sence would fit Dr. Bob's analogy a little better.)

When I heard the other day of a 'new youth minister' going to a church, I replied: "Make sure you have a window on his office door." I was told the church could not afford it, so I replied: "Then take the door of the hinges."

We really cannot afford to "do business" the way we have always done it. The world is too worldly, and many of us Christians are not removed enough from the world.

Formal education (AKA book smarts) is important, but it is NOT a substitute for mentoring and discipling new ministers.

 

[Martin]

Rhetorician:

For what its worth I think education is always important. It does not have to be offical school but we should always be seeking to learn and grow (in all areas of our life). I don't care what profession a person is in they need a education (use it or not). Personally I want to goto school the rest of my life. Even when I finish my "offical degrees" (whatever that means) I will continue taking classes and maybe earn one or two more degrees. I enjoy learning. I can't understand why anyone is opposed to or un-interested in offical education. Ministers should attend a Bible Institute, Bible College, Seminary, University, or Graduate school. There are so many issues that they need to be made aware of. I just think of all the confusion that has come from unlearned people in the pulpit. O how sad it is!

Even the Apostle's went through at least 3 years of education at Jesus' feet. Hey, they had an MDiv from the Master Himself!

Going to a Trinity College of the Bible and Seminary, Covington, or Andersonville is better than nothing at all. Even if it is only a certificate program (like LHBI) that is better than nothing. However a formal education, at some level, should be sought by pastors. This gives them tools they cannot get studying "by themselves". Issues in hermeneutics, apologetics, languages, theology, and Biblical studies can be complex. Sometimes a course, or series of courses, helps someone clearify their own position and explain it better to others. It also "CAN" help them avoid simplistic, strawman, urban legend type answers to serious problems.


Martin.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Martin:
Ministers should attend a Bible Institute, Bible College, Seminary, University, or Graduate school.

Chapter and verse please?

Mark Osgatharp

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Chapter and verse please?

2 Timothy 2:15,16

Any seminary can do nothing more than give an introduction to a lifetime of learning. If the attitude is never there, that person will never learn anymore than they know now which is very little.

The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled -- Plutarch

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by bapmom:
First of all, I know of no pastor who actually thinks education is unimportant.

I have met some who think education gets in way of knowing God and tears you down.

Ive known men who's "education" was so lofty that they no longer could speak to the "common man", and in actuality lost their listeners because they no longer knew how to just talk to people.

I would imagine that was the case dating back many years. Jesus and Paul are good examples of the opposite. They do speak to people and the people understood them but got mad. I would contend that if some people never got mad the words spoken had little impact.

I just see that there's such an emphasis placed on formal education that we forget that God uses many things to educate us.

You are right. I have never seen a person who wanted to learn more and grow in what ever profession he was in who did not want to learn all he could from those who have gone before him.

School is good, but its not the be all and end all of a person's life or qualifications.

I have always said that. For example how many men in the pastorate are discipling others. The number is very very small. How many professors who are teaching in seminaries are discipling others especially their students? Whenever I bring that up I get some rather interesting responses. The response is usually one of ignoring the subject. Discipling involves transparency and humility. It is not just imparted in a sermon or a Bible study. Is a life reaching a life.

If anyone get can that through to the church in America they will have accomplished a monumental task. So many church members and pastors measure effectiveness by nickels and noses and not bu how many of the members are making disciples. Making disciples is not a quick fix but a lifetime of ministry

 

[RayMarshall19]

I would like to know if gb93433 read the topic of this thread?

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by gb93433:
2 Timothy 2:15,16

I don't read anything about a seminary, college, university, or even a Bible Institute in II Timothy 2:15 or 16. I do read that it says to study. To that I say a hearty, Amen!

The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled -- Plutarch

So are you suggesting the Holy Spirit can't kindle the fire of the mind without the aid of a seminary, college, university, or Bible Institute?

Mark Osgatharp

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
So are you suggesting the Holy Spirit can't kindle the fire of the mind without the aid of a seminary, college, university, or Bible Institute?

Not at all. I have never seen God use a lazy man who will not work. It really is that simple. Work includes a lot of things but it starts with a proper attitude. Never have I ever seen a person who wanted to know God not study the Bible. Never have I seen a person who is making disciples not reading and studying his Bible.

When one studies an English Bible he is however studying the work and interpretation of a committee and the results of the decisions they made.

The most a seminary can do is to give an introduction to the text of the Bible. The rest is up to the person to use the tools he is given to study and gain more knowledge as a result of the hard work of study.

I have seen semiary graduates who are lazy and have not studied since seminary and I have seen those who it motivated them a lot to study harder and better. I would rather listen to a hard working man who studies his English Bible well than a lazy man who has done nothing to learn since seminary and has all the tools placed in the junkyard of the past.

If I had my choice I would rather listen to a well educated, motivated man who loves God and makes disciples.

Personally I find it very difficult to listen to a man who does not make disiples and sees church as an event where he comes to preach.

A man who knows God always has something worth listening to. He has a message jam packed with evidence of his faith in Christ.

I think seminary is dangerous if all anyone goes there for is to get a preacher's license and does not care to know God better. The aim of all our efforts should be to know God.

A holy clumsiness is better than a sinful eloquence.
Saint Jerome (C. 347-C. 420)

Give me one hundred preachers who fear nothing but sin and desire nothing but God, and I care not a straw whether they be clergymen or laymen, such alone will shake the gates of hell and set up the kingdom of God upon the earth.
John Wesley (1703-1791)

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin:
Ministers should attend a Bible Institute, Bible College, Seminary, University, or Graduate school.

Chapter and verse please?

Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]It is sheer nonsense to proof-text everything with chapter and verse. God has given us some good sense and discernment to make godly decisions without a hard-wired commandment on every detail. Where is the chapter and verse intimating that we have chapter and verse for every detail of life? I Corinthians 6:2,4 indicates that God has given us some discernment for judging the practical aspects of life for ourselves. BTW, one is not being more spiritual or Biblical by demanding chapter and verse for every idea--it is being less Biblical by going beyond what the Bible portends.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

paidagogos,

I will take your last post as a frank admission that you can't prove by the Bible that a formal education is a necessary qualification for the ministry.

We do know that Paul told Timothy to study. We do know that Paul taught Timothy and told Timothy to teach others, who would teach others. We don't find anywhere that Timothy sought a formal educational experience anything akin to modern theological training.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[paidagogos]

When I was younger, it irritated me to no end that intellectuals characterized Bible-believing Christians with an anti-intellectual bias. To my chagrin, I can to realize that they did have a point. There is, unfortunately, some degree of anti-intellectualism and suspicion of learning and education within our circles.

The extreme are the Old Regular Baptists who preach with a hand cupped to the ear as to get it straight down through the rafters. They believe that the preacher is to give no study, including the Bible, or forethought to his message but he preaches as God fills his mouth. We chortle at such absurdness yet we retain elements of this same mindset to a lesser degree in our own thinking. There are historical antecedents and collective remembrance that militate against our acceptance of education and scholarship.

IMHO, here are some of the factors influencing our biases:
1. Education was the conduit for some of the challenges to our Bible-believing Christianity including:
a. Evolution
b. Denial of basic doctrines such as the Virgin Birth, Inspiration, etc.
c. The Social Gospel
d. Liberalism & Modernism
e. Sitting under continual sensational preaching bashing the aforementioned threats (This helped define a us and them mentality.)
2. Lack of formal education among many preachers who cursed what they didn’t have.
3. The human element in the whole issue
a. Some are unwilling to work hard to obtain a good Bible education
b. The have-nots condemn the haves
c. Spiritual one-upmanship--I get my messages straight from God or the Bible, not from what some man thinks.
i. This is pride saying that I know better than anyone else and no one can teach me.
ii. This is pride saying that I am more spiritual than those who get it from books.
iii. This is pride saying that I am more Biblical than those poor slobs who study from books.
d. Spiritual one-upmanship—I just study the Bible, not some teacher in seminary or man’s opinion. (BTW, when it’s your opinion or my opinion, it is still man’s opinion nonetheless. Of course, it is human to think more highly of our own opinion than anyone else’s.)

There are, undoubtedly, other factors but the preceding are the most influential. The upshot has been that we throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
paidagogos,

I will take your last post as a frank admission that you can't prove by the Bible that a formal education is a necessary qualification for the ministry.

We do know that Paul told Timothy to study. We do know that Paul taught Timothy and told Timothy to teach others, who would teach others. We don't find anywhere that Timothy sought a formal educational experience anything akin to modern theological training.

Mark Osgatharp

No, I'm saying that I'm not even trying to make it a Biblical requirement. This is simply your way of skewing the argument to gain advantage. Now, let's see you prove that a requirement must be stated in Scripture to be a good requirment. Where is your proof-text?

Re-read my other post and see that I argue for some God-given sense and a sound mind.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
paidagogos,

I will take your last post as a frank admission that you can't prove by the Bible that a formal education is a necessary qualification for the ministry.

We do know that Paul told Timothy to study. We do know that Paul taught Timothy and told Timothy to teach others, who would teach others. We don't find anywhere that Timothy sought a formal educational experience anything akin to modern theological training.

Mark Osgatharp

Nonsense. Of course Paul did not tell Timothy to go to seminary since it didn't exist. But, your argument is rather like saying, "Well, we shouldn't have church bus ministries because it ain't in the Bible."