The Reckoning of Time

[Rodger]

Hi Rodger, yes you are correct. We have the generations from Adam to Jesus in scripture, and using the biblical duration given for some, the historical average duration for others, and a generous allowance for those in between, Adam was created less than 7000 years ago. And if the creation days were 24 hour days, then the earth is also less than 7000 years old, thus those that hold this view are YEC!

Agreed.

I appreciate your post, however we must conclude that no where in Scripture is there a record of how old the Creation is.

Many Christians believe that the earth is about 6,000 years old. But most scientists say the earth is more than 4.6 billion years old.
Who is right?

This is Genesis, chapter 1, verses 1 through 5.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was empty and desolate, and darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God spread out on the surface of the waters. And God said, “Let light be.” And light was. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated between the light and the darkness. And God called the light “Day,” and the darkness He called “Night.” .....And there was evening, and there was morning—day one.

As you can see, the Bible says that God created everything in the beginning. Then this chapter describes a sequence of six days. The Bible says that Gid created humans on the sixth day.

Then, in chapter 5 and chapter 11, we find lists of names and the number of years that passed between each generation. If you add up all the numbers in these lists of names, you will see that the Bible claims that the first humans were created about 6,000 years ago.

That is why many people who believe the Bible think the earth is about 6,000 years old.

But that isn’t what the Bible says.

Notice here in the first chapter of the Bible, that the first two verses are separate from the rest of the chapter.

Genesis 1:1:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Verse 2:
"And the earth was empty and desolate, and darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God spread out on the surface of the waters."

These first two verses give background information before the story starts.
It seems by the literal words in those Scriptures that God created everything sometime in past, but then, here the earth is, empty and desolate, covered with water and darkness.

Then the first day of the story begins in verse 3:
"And God said, “Let light be.” And light was. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated between the light and the darkness. And God called the light “Day,” and the darkness He called “Night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—day one.

As you read through the rest of the chapter, you will see a very clear pattern. Each day begins with the words, “And God said…,” and each day ends with the number of the day.

But the first two verses of the Bible are outside of this daily structure.
So God created the universe and the earth before the first day. And because the earth was created before the first day, we don’t know exactly how old it is. It could have been a very long time ago.

Also notice that in verse 2 says:
"…the earth was empty and desolate…"!
The earth is actually described in some kind of dark and ruined state.

The Bible describes the earth in the exact same way in a prophecy about the end the age. You can read that prophecy in the book of Jeremiah, chapter 4, verse 23. The prophecy is about a future time when the earth will be almost totally destroyed. Then, after that, God will repair the earth for the final phase of His plan.

Now back in the very beginning of the Bible, what we see IMHO is an initial creation, then the earth is in a ruined state, and then God repairs the earth six days. When you read this chapter with this understanding, then it actually makes sense.

It also matches up with what we learn from geology and other sciences, which show that the earth is very old and that there have been many periods of time in the earth’s history when the earth was in a ruined or destroyed state. There have been meteors, floods, ice ages, and volcanoes that have left the earth in a ruined state.

So how old is the earth? Again, the Bible doesn’t say. So someone tells you that the Bible is unscientific, because it says the earth is 6,000 years old, now you can explain what the Bible really says about the age of the earth.

IF and when we tell a lost person seeking the truth that the Earth is 6000 old regardless of what science and geology and you just have to believe it.....I promise you from experience that that person will walk away lost, just the way he walked in.

 

[37818]

This does not work with Exodus 20:11 which has God making the heavens and earth for six days.

False. There are three places referred to as heaven.

One has no beginning with God being always omnipresent.
Also called the heaven of heavens or the third heaven.

The heaven of the caused universe is dated in billions of years. Genesis 1:1.

And Earth's atmosphere being called heaven, Exodus 20:11, Genesis 1:6-8. The YEC heaven.

 

[Van]

But the first two verses of the Bible are outside of this daily structure.
So God created the universe and the earth before the first day. And because the earth was created before the first day, we don’t know exactly how old it is. It could have been a very long time ago.
Also notice that in verse 2 says:
"…the earth was empty and desolate…"!
The earth is actually described in some kind of dark and ruined state.

This view does not mesh with Exodus 20:11. The verse does not say God made the heavens and the earth before the six days.

 

[Van]

False. There are three places referred to as heaven.

One has no beginning with God being always omnipresent.
Also called the heaven of heavens or the third heaven.

The heaven of the caused universe is dated in billions of years. Genesis 1:1.

And Earth's atmosphere being called heaven, Exodus 20:11, Genesis 1:6-8. The YEC heaven.

Did the third Heaven, the abode of God exist before creation? Only God existed before creation.
Genesis 1:1 does not give "billions of years" anywhere in the text.

 

[Rodger]

But the first two verses of the Bible are outside of this daily structure.
So God created the universe and the earth before the first day. And because the earth was created before the first day, we don’t know exactly how old it is. It could have been a very long time ago.
Also notice that in verse 2 says:
"…the earth was empty and desolate…"!
The earth is actually described in some kind of dark and ruined state.

This view does not mesh with Exodus 20:11. The verse does not say God made the heavens and the earth before the six days.

And neither does it say that He did not.

Again......
Also notice that in verse 2 says:
"…the earth was empty and desolate…"!
The earth is actually described in some kind of dark and ruined state.

 

[Rodger]

Did the third Heaven, the abode of God exist before creation? Only God existed before creation.
Genesis 1:1 does not give "billions of years" anywhere in the text.

You are correct in that "Genesis 1:1 does not give "billions of years" anywhere in the text.

However, when considering the Hebrew word for DAY, one must understand that "YOM" has many usages.

There is also not a case given in which billions of years did not exist before Gen 1:1.

If we simply look at the distance of far away stars and the time it takes for light to travel from them to us, we are forced to admitt that the Earth can not be just 6000 years old. Even Young Earth Creationists themselves admit that star distances are a problem when defending their belief in a young earth.

Consider the facts.....
The Bible says that God created the earth in the beginning; YEC says that God created the earth in the first day.

The Bible says that God created the sun and the moon in the beginning; YEC says that God created the sun and the moon in the fourth day.

The Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning; YEC says that God created the heavens and the earth in six days.

This misunderstanding of the very first verse of the Bible has led Young Earth Creationism to believe that God created the earth on the first day without the sun, and that it wasn’t until the fourth day that God created the sun, the moon and the stars. This is not only biblically untrue but also scientifically nonsensical. It is impossible for a 24-hour day comprising of both light and darkness, day and night with morning and evening to occur, without both the earth and the sun existing together. This is elementary physics and common sense.

 

[Blank]

Linguistic scholars acknowledge the Hebrew word yôm (translated “day” in English) has several literal meanings:
1. a period of daylight,
2. a 12-hour day,
3. a. 24-hour day,
4. time,
5. a period of time with unspecified duration,
6. and epoch of time.

Scripture, if it is to be believed as God's Word, defines the term 'day'...'evening and morning', a far cry from 'millions' of years.
Genesis 1:5
God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

 

[37818]

Did the third Heaven, the abode of God exist before creation? Only God existed before creation.
Genesis 1:1 does not give "billions of years" anywhere in the text.

LOL

God has no beginning.

Now God was always omnipresent and infinite so He would always have the third heaven.

Psalm 90:2, . . . from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

 

[Van]

And neither does it say that He did not.

Again......
Also notice that in verse 2 says:
"…the earth was empty and desolate…"!
The earth is actually described in some kind of dark and ruined state.

Exodus 20:11 says God did not make the heavens and the earth before the six days.

 

[Van]

SNIP
There is also not a case given in which billions of years did not exist before Gen 1:1.

If we simply look at the distance of far away stars and the time it takes for light to travel from them to us, we are forced to admitt that the Earth can not be just 6000 years old. Even Young Earth Creationists themselves admit that star distances are a problem when defending their belief in a young earth.

Consider the facts.....
The Bible says that God created the earth in the beginning; YEC says that God created the earth in the first day.

The Bible says that God created the sun and the moon in the beginning; YEC says that God created the sun and the moon in the fourth day.

The Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning; YEC says that God created the heavens and the earth in six days.

This misunderstanding of the very first verse of the Bible has led Young Earth Creationism to believe that God created the earth on the first day without the sun, and that it wasn’t until the fourth day that God created the sun, the moon and the stars. This is not only biblically untrue but also scientifically nonsensical. It is impossible for a 24-hour day comprising of both light and darkness, day and night with morning and evening to occur, without both the earth and the sun existing together. This is elementary physics and common sense.

In the beginning, does not say before the six days. Day 1 was "in the beginning."

Your apparent claim is you "know" that the YEC is wrong, that God did not create everything less than 7000 years ago with apparent age to match whatever science has correctly determined. I doubt it.

Many folks understand Genesis 1:1-2 as a preamble, this is what I am going to tell you, and then in verse 3, the actual creation sequence is given.

 

[Van]

LOL

God has no beginning.

Now God was always omnipresent and infinite so He would always have the third heaven.

Psalm 90:2, . . . from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

LOL

No scripture says God"s abode, the third heaven, where others beside God abide, was not created.
Scripture does say before creation, nothing but God the Trinity alone existed. John 1:3
Attempts to suggest I believe God is not omnipresent and eternal are for the purpose of obfuscation.

 

[Van]

Physical time which governs our temporal existence was created at the "Big Bang" according to science. However, the possibility that time, or a sequence of events, existed in God's mind, call it "spiritual time" before the big bang. Certainly those in the third heaven, the abode of God, experience the passage of time.

 

[Rodger]

Scripture, if it is to be believed as God's Word, defines the term 'day'...'evening and morning', a far cry from 'millions' of years.
Genesis 1:5
God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

That is just not the case. I know that you want it to be, but it is not.

The word "day" in the Hebrew is "YOM" and as I posted, it has all kinds of meanings and "Day" is only one of them.

 

[Blank]

That is just not the case. I know that you want it to be, but it is not.

The word "day" in the Hebrew is "YOM" and as I posted, it has all kinds of meanings and "Day" is only one of them.

"Evening and morning one day" ; the Bible can't be much clearer than that and I don't know what other source you would use to disagree with God's word?

 

[37818]

LOL

No scripture says God"s abode, the third heaven, where others beside God abide, was not created.
Scripture does say before creation, nothing but God the Trinity alone existed. John 1:3
Attempts to suggest I believe God is not omnipresent and eternal are for the purpose of obfuscation.

Your view here of God is.not making sense.

 

[Rodger]

"Evening and morning one day" ; the Bible can't be much clearer than that and I don't know what other source you would use to disagree with God's word?

Source: Strongs 3117......"Yom"
It can refer to a 24-hour period, the daylight hours, or an indefinite period of time. The context in which "yom" is used often determines its specific meaning.

Source :Hebrew Word Definition: Day | AHRC = Hebrews Word Definitions
The Hebrew word יום (yom, Strong's #3117) means a "day," but not specifically a twenty-four hour period, but instead more generically like in "a day that something occurs."

Source: Does the Hebrew Word “Yom” (Translated “Day”) in Genesis 1 Mean a 24-Hour Day or Something Else?
“yom“: 1) Literally — but referring to one of the other literal meanings of the Hebrew word “yom“, namely, a long, yet definite, period of time.

Source:
The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press) "It can denote:......
1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness),
2. the period of twenty-four hours,
3. a general vague "time,"
4. a point of time,
5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."

It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time."

For instance, in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.

Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days. In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years." In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.

Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year."

Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age."

One time Yom is translated "ago." 1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..."

Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7.

Three times yom is translated "season."
In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward." I
In Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," .
In 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...". In each case yom represents a multi-month period.

 

[Blank]

Source: Strongs 3117......"Yom"
It can refer to a 24-hour period, the daylight hours, or an indefinite period of time. The context in which "yom" is used often determines its specific meaning.

Source :Hebrew Word Definition: Day | AHRC = Hebrews Word Definitions
The Hebrew word יום (yom, Strong's #3117) means a "day," but not specifically a twenty-four hour period, but instead more generically like in "a day that something occurs."

Source: Does the Hebrew Word “Yom” (Translated “Day”) in Genesis 1 Mean a 24-Hour Day or Something Else?
“yom“: 1) Literally — but referring to one of the other literal meanings of the Hebrew word “yom“, namely, a long, yet definite, period of time.

Source:
The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press) "It can denote:......
1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness),
2. the period of twenty-four hours,
3. a general vague "time,"
4. a point of time,
5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."

It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time."

For instance, in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.

Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days. In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years." In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.

Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year."

Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age."

One time Yom is translated "ago." 1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..."

Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7.

Three times yom is translated "season."
In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward." I
In Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," .
In 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...". In each case yom represents a multi-month period.

You probably should look up the Hebrew word for 'evening' and 'morning. because that is what God's Word calls a day/yom, at least that is Scripture's definition, not the definition of armchair theologians or translators.

 

[Rodger]

You probably should look up the Hebrew word for 'evening' and 'morning. because that is what God's Word calls a day/yom, at least that is Scripture's definition, not the definition of armchair theologians or translators.

It is always interesting to me, that people who are so rooted in what they think and then demand "sources" from others, that they always reject those sources.

One of the dangers of life is falling into the trap of......."I like what I know even if what I know is wrong".

That simply means that if and when we are shown something we like is wrong, we will not change or learn anything new.

 

[Blank]

It is always interesting to me, that people who are so rooted in what they think and then demand "sources" from others, that they always reject those sources.

One of the dangers of life is falling into the trap of......."I like what I know even if what I know is wrong".

That simply means that if and when we are shown something we like is wrong, we will not change or learn anything new.

Those doors swing both ways (i.e. YE/OE).

 

[Rodger]

Those doors swing both ways (i.e. YE/OE).

Absolutely true!

I for one was a Young Earth believer most of my life. However, the more I read, the more i learned, the more I became aware that the earth just could not be 6000 years old.

The old argument that the Bible is right (which a agree with) and science is wrong ran its course. You see, I accepted that for a long time but then I asked my self, are ALL the sciences are wrong. ????????

Did all of the Astronomy, Geology, Radiometric dating, Thermal ionization, Stratigraphy, Physics, Tree ring analyzing, Ice Core Analyzing, all collude together to prove the 6000 year Bible story as wrong????

If they did, then why in the world hasn't the Christian scientists proven all of them wrong. What a law suit that would be!!!!!!!!!!