the redemption of Israel

[Darrell C]

This might come as a newsflash......but all 66 books are one revelation given to the church.

Here is another newsflash: they were not all given at the same time.

You will not find the promise of the New Covenant to Israel in the Pentateuch.

Revelation is progressive. That is a primary point underscoring the Mystery of the Gospel and Eternal Redemption.

No-one in Israel was eternally redeemed. Everyone in the Church is.

The other poster gets stung by being told that his hermeutical approach fragments the word of God.......

In your perception, but he has soundly defeated you in every response. The only way you can not see that is, well...I don't know how you can't see it, lol.

so what does he do?.....you guessed it, back to the jr.high routine....

Not even close. lol

suggesting I am offering disconnected verses:laugh:

An astute observation.

His theology does not enable him to begin to grasp how redemptive themes flow through the bible...

Show one post where Gentile Inclusion is denied under New Covenant standard, by anyone.

False argument, false charge.

And by the way, would you mind showing me where I can find this Covenant of Redemption that shows all of the faithful of all time were eternally saved...before or after the Cross?

he lacks the spiritual perception to come to truth.

He can help you if you would simply address the points made.

Many of us see it however so he gets frustrated.

Can't blame him if he did. He shows great restraint because on most forums you would no longer be a member. Your disruption, as well as that of your pals violates Christian Doctrine on a number of levels.

You should learn to show a little respect for the staff.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

All God's elect are eternally redeemed by the accomplished redemption at the cross.

That is the point I have been making since the other thread.

But you can't stick with that truth, you have to try to justify the error you have been speaking:

Some looked forward to it by God given saving faith in the promised seed that should come.
Some look back to the cross.....in either case.....

No, not "in either case," those who had faith prior to the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel had no clue.

They had a foundational faith in God...that was it. That was enough to secure their eternal destiny, but it was not enough for them to be eternally redeemed.

Christ had to die first.

And this is what the writer of Hebrews is speaking about, the difference between the First Principles of the Oracles of God and that which is perfect, or complete:...in regards to the Doctrine of Christ:



Hebrews 5:10-6:1

King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


The writer draws the distinct difference between what is foundational and what is complete, and warns them not to lay again that which is foundational.

Pay careful attention to v.12. You are having difficulty with the First Principles.

2 Tim 1:9 gives the biblical explanation of when the grace was given.....

And how much do you make for supplying comedy relief?

2 Timothy 1:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Great, now let's read a little further on:



10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:



Again, No-one in Israel was eternally redeemed.

Everyone in the Church is.

That is a clear distinction between Israel and the Church.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

looking for the time of the incarnation. ....

"Looking for" implies it had not happened.

We have the Gospels to underscore that truth.

and the actual accomplishment of the redemptive sacrifice.....

The "actual accomplishment..."

Very good.

Now, what about Israel?

Will you deny they received atonement for sins through the Law?

and our future glorification.

Completely irrelevant except to say that this was also a Mystery.

Another clear Doctrine your club can't handle.

Your take on Hebrews 1 is also wrong......

Sorry, no, it just isn't that difficult.

God has spoken in many times and ways...but has spoken finally in His Son......not differently.....

I would say that in one Age speaking through Prophets and in this Age speaking to us by His Son...

...qualifies as different.

Especially when you factor in that the Son sent the Spirit, the Comforter, to convey Gospel truth.

That didn't happen in other dispensations either, amigo.

but fully and finally ....literally in SON.

"Fully."

"Finally."

Very good.

Shame you ruin that little bright spot in your posting and go on to say...

This speaks of a continuity.....one cohesive truth revealed finally and fully in the SON

No, not even your commentary does that.

Meditate on these words...

"Fully."

"Finally."

I have nothing to prove to you.

You do now.

You can prove to me you're big enough to admit to blatant error.

I post openly and deal with those who would like to get an answer or a link to help them grow in grace and knowledge.

Grace and knowledge are not exactly the terms that come to mind when your posts are read.

Vitriol and confusion are more apt.

I see that you like to offer an overload of good verses,

Sorry Scripture and Study bothers you so much.

But how do you ever expect to grow if you only make vague references.

Start actually posting the Scripture. If you had posted 1 Timothy 2 you may have decided not to, because it was contrary to what you are trying to teach.

that do not prove what you think they do...

So show why they don't.

Hebrews 1:1-2 doesn't teach that God is doing something different?

lol

then you wonder why people ignore your posts,

Funny, but I seem to get quite a bit of interaction.

Only the cowards ignore.

like sbm.who basically posts to himself and does not really interact......

Well, perhaps that will lead to an understanding and discussion someone will want to interact with.

Beats having a policy of disrupting every thread, ignoring points and Scripture, and cheerleading for people who say some really stupid stuff. lol

Again, a little advice: you should stop cheering when your quarterback runs the ball into the wrong end-zone.

looks like you have that kind of style,

I interact in several different ways with my antagonists.

If you would like to try another style, you are going to need to work on your own.

but you mix in evil.insinuations that are.not fitting

The fact of the matter is...it's not evil if it's true.

And if it's not true, then it wouldn't bother us.

Right?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Crossway has put the ESV out in a version they call the "Gospel Transformation Bible" which talks about the Gospel in each book of the Bible. Had a copy but gave it ti a grandson who is teaching a SS class of young people.

The sacrificial death of the Redeemer is first promised in Genesis 3:15. The Bible is the story of the Grace of GOD as HE works in history to bring about the salvation of HIS Elect!

And the Gospels are where He does that.

Not Genesis-Malachi.

No-one of Israel was eternally redeemed.

Everyone in the Church is.

Christ obtained eternal redemption for all of the Faithful on the Cross.

This is simply basic.


God bless.

 

[revmwc]

And the Gospels are where He does that.

Not Genesis-Malachi.

No-one of Israel was eternally redeemed.

Everyone in the Church is.

Christ obtained eternal redemption for all of the Faithful on the Cross.

This is simply basic.


God bless.

Abraham we are told had his faith counted to him for righteousness just was we do and every other believer has

 

[Darrell C]

Anyone can do a Google search.....some of us have lived through some of these teachings which are still offered......

Relevance to the topic?

revmac knows the accepted view and stands like a man and defends his pov.

Relevance to the topic?

Just illustrates you want to turn the thread to a discussion of the Theology System.

If you profess some novelty that is not the classic teaching.....

Most of what he has posted is simply basic Bible Truth.

then start a new thread where you can reveal your new insights.....

Why should he do that when he is focusing on the topic?

Why don't you start a new thread. Perhaps because no-one is really interested in your threads?

you can show exactly what is the same and what is different....

He has done that.

Same household of faith...different economy.

Israel received atonement through animal sacrifice as commanded by the Law.

They still needed to be redeemed.

Nationally...they still do.

But since the OP believes we can just use any old verse that has redeemed in it, consider:


Luke 21:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Now tell me, is Eternal Redemption in view or temporal Redemption?

Does it matter?

Once you do that we will then let you know where we agree and do not agree.

You have proven you won't.

That also will remove this shifting all around the world on each item.

You are the reason for the derailment. Yet you charge him with it.

Hilarious.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I had no intention of ever responding to you again, DHK

Does that mean you weren't going to talk about him behind his back either?

Just curious, seeing you have a habit of doing that with me.

{ Faith in WHAT?WHO? I have seen Muslim boys that have more FAITH than the average Christian in this country.

No, actually, you have never seen a Muslim that has more faith than the average Christians.

Muslims do not have the faith of the Christian, and you equating the two displays your ignorance of faith in relation to Redemption.

Have you ever seen a Muslim with more belief than the average Christian?

But since you are so negative I would remind you of a few passages of Scripture:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Oh, break out the Scripture when someone is negative, lol.

So tell me...when did that old serpent get his head crushed, OR.

Right there in the Garden?

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the GOSPEL unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

"Foreseeing" being a critical word you might want to look into.

Now tell me, when you go out to witness, do you tell them "Christ is going to come, that was promised to Abraham?"

Or do you tell them Christ has come.

We do see aspects of the Gospel in the promises made unto Abraham, but, that does not change the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed until the Comforter came.

We see aspects of the Gospel in the Gospel of the Kingdom, but, that does not change the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed until the Comforter came.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

So why wasn't the Law for the Gentiles?

Why weren't the Gentiles the People of God?

When did God begin making both Jew and Gentile...one?



Ephesians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:



Please show me that God is not doing something different.

Please show me that Israel, or any Gentile...was eternally redeemed under the Law, or prior to the Law.

Every person that has ever been saved or will be saved is saved only because of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ FIRST promised in Genesis 3:15!

But they were not eternally redeemed in the Garden.

They were not even saved in the Garden, but if you read it...

...they were lost in the Garden.

See also Romans Five.

And those are my final words to you!

Make sure you include backbiting in that promise.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by OldRegular View Post
Crossway has put the ESV out in a version they call the "Gospel Transformation Bible" which talks about the Gospel in each book of the Bible. Had a copy but gave it ti a grandson who is teaching a SS class of young people.

The sacrificial death of the Redeemer is first promised in Genesis 3:15. The Bible is the story of the Grace of GOD as HE works in history to bring about the salvation of HIS Elect!

Yes......the promised seed is the promise all have looked for as in Gen 4:26....God hath appointed me another seed.......God saved all who had God given faith in this promise.
They did not have to know all the particulars. ...

No, all did not look for that Seed, many of Israel thought themselves to be the seed, thus believed they were saved by heritage.

And not sure what New Testament you read, but one does have to know particulars.

That is why the Lord sent Peter to Cornelius.

Still curious...were you baptized into Moses?


God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

I love how the rules change depending on the situation.
I was told to start my own thread so as not to keep derailing another thread and then am told I am derailing my own thread for allowing the very discussion I was told to start my own thread about.
I was told not to switch words and then am criticized for not switching words. And then to also falsely state that I would use any old verse with "redeem" in it where if you read my OP I was clear on why I picked the verses I did, and did not pick. For example I jumped over the Pentateuch because "redeem" is used in reference to Egypt.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by DarrellC
So you are a follower of Abraham and he is your father?

Paul "fathered" many children through his ministry, so does that mean that he replaced Abraham for them?

Abraham is the father of all who believe (Romans 4:11).

He didn't father me, lol. God did.

And he is not my father, God is.

But since we are at it...how about Abel? Did Abel have faith?

Noah?

Job?

I am having a hard time seeing Abraham as the father of all who believe.

I would suggest that in context in view is a contrast between those under Law and those that are not.

Abraham trusted God and looked forward to the Seed that should come of whom Isaac is a type.

Abraham had no more understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel than Peter did.

God credited his faith as righteousness and so he is the father of all who trust in Christ for salvation (cf. Gal. 3:16).

No, the Father is the Father of all those who trust in Christ for salvation.

Just to remind you:



John 1:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


1 John 3:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Yep! I'm a follower of Abraham and he is my father in the faith (Gal. 3:7-9).

Another passage contrasting the Law with the New Covenant.


Galatians 3:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

'Father' and 'son' in Greek and Hebrew are synonymous with 'ancestor' and 'descendant' (cf. for example John 8:39; Mark 10:47).

In Scripture it also speaks of "begetting" someone unto something.



1 Corinthians 4:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Now, what makes more sense to you. That you are a son of God, and God is your Father, or you are a son of Abraham, and Abraham is your father?

Which application makes more sense in light of the New Testament.

And let me ask you this...were men given the power to become the sons of God by receiving Christ in the Old Testament?

Kind of hard to make that argument when we know when Christ came and we see what reception He received from Israel:


John 1:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Therefore being Paul's son in the faith as Timothy was (1 Tim. 1:2) does not preclude Timothy from also having Abraham for his father.

I would agree, my friend, but, that does not mean that we make this a universal application to believers in New Covenant relationship with God.

Now are we the sons of God.

The power to become the sons of God began when men were able to receive Christ.

Having faith in God and veiled prophecy did not eternally redeem men, for if that were the case, then the sacrifices of the Old Testament Economies would have ceased.

Quote:
God bless

You too!

Hey thanks!

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I love how the rules change depending on the situation.

No, you don't like it when your version of the rules don't align with the reality of the thread.

I was told to start my own thread so as not to keep derailing another thread and then am told I am derailing my own thread for allowing the very discussion I was told to start my own thread about.

You are encouraging derailing the thread by misidentifying what the topic is.

And here you are complaining when this has already been addressed.

Here is the topic:

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Not one member of Israel was eternally redeemed and forgiven through the Blood of Christ. Every member of the Church is.

This statement was made in the thread about arguments against the Post Trib Rapture, but it is a statement I want to focus more on.

I have done everything I can to make this the focus and not one person has addressed my response.

I even took it easy and didn't do a detailed response, but focused on the statement and what it meant.

Then you say...

As the original poster I can tell you that this thread is not about the difference between Israel and the church ( especially when you consider I was willing to grant that point for my argument) its about the unbliblical claim that Israel is redeemed apart from the blood of Christ.
But since DC went on to argue about Israel and the church being distinct that morphes this thread into talking about dispensationalism as only dispensationalist insist on the clear divide.

So where is your support that my statement is unbiblical?

Where is your address of the Scripture presented to help you understand the statement?

It is about the difference between Israel and the Church, just as it was in the other thread.

That difference is that no-one was eternally redeemed through the Law, and Israel was under the Law.

That is what Christ came to do...eternally redeem. Completely forgive.

I was told not to switch words and then am criticized for not switching words.

Show me where you are criticized for not switching words?

You are criticized for making saved and redeemed equal terms and for suggesting that one can use the same word without bearing to context.

And then to also falsely state that I would use any old verse with "redeem" in it where if you read my OP I was clear on why I picked the verses I did, and did not pick.

This is what you said:

So for the sake of this discussion I will be using Redeemed or any word with Redeem at its root to try to make my point.

And that will not "make your point," lol.

Show me how...

In 2 Sam David recognizes that it is God who Redeemed him.

Quote:
But David answered Rechab and Baanah his brother, the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, “As the LORD lives, who has redeemed my life out of every adversity,

2 Sam 4:9
So here we have David, soon to be King of Israel recognizing that He has been redeemed from adversity.

Let’s keep looking at Redeemed as it is used throughout the Bible.

David is eternally redeemed, and why you cannot see that the adversity is temporal.

And while we are at it...

So here we have David, soon to be King of Israel recognizing that He has been redeemed from adversity.

...I would suggest you throw away the commentaries you have and buy new ones.

For example I jumped over the Pentateuch because "redeem" is used in reference to Egypt.

I thought maybe it was because it is just too clear that Israel is the created People of God in the Old Testament.

Maybe I am wrong.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
So you are a follower of Abraham and he is your father?

Paul "fathered" many children through his ministry, so does that mean that he replaced Abraham for them?


God bless.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The correlation to Abraham's seed is through Christ.

Okay, all together now...


Matthew 6:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Dinner time?

I think or it is my belief, that means, one is, of the faith, of the Abraham, thus an heir.

I think I will stick with being a joint heir with Christ, having the same Father He had.

An illustration used for faith does not negate that fact.


God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

DC instead of derailing this thread, start your own thread. My purpose was to show that Israel was in fact redeemed by the blood of the lamb. I showed that, cumulating in your current favorite proof text in Heb. Icon OR and others continued with other verses that back up that Israel was redeemed by the blood of the lamb. You got on me for not listening to the OP in another thread, lets see if you will listen to this OP when its from a different camp?

I was nice I followed your rules and it still got me no where with you, so I have no incentive to play by your rules any more as you have proved that you will change them to suit your whims.

I will continue to stand for Truth no matter what you say to me or about me as that is what Christians are called to do.

 

[Darrell C]

As the OP can we please stop complaining that this thread has gotten off topic. As far as I the OP is concerned the only post off topic are those complaining that it's gotten off topic. Thank you.

Read the posts and you will see some of us are actually continuing to maintain the focus.

Thank you.

Really...thank you. Vey glad you started the thread where we can focus on an issue that, while it could have been addressed in the other thread, makes it clear that reviling Dispensationalists is probably not the smartest campaign in the old war manual.




God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

Read the posts and you will see some of us are actually continuing to maintain the focus.

Thank you.

Really...thank you. Vey glad you started the thread where we can focus on an issue that, while it could have been addressed in the other thread, makes it clear that reviling Dispensationalists is probably not the smartest campaign in the old war manual.




God bless.

You're welcome, now please stop derailing it.

But I do want to say thank you for continuing to prove our points

 

[Darrell C]

DC instead of derailing this thread, start your own thread.

Hollow, and you know it.

You have not even responded to my response, and since your goal was to try to get others involved in attacking my statement (which you still do not understand), it would appear that I am the only one who is maintaining the OP.

So stop sniveling, lol.

My purpose was to show that Israel was in fact redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

And in your mind you think your OP does that.

It doesn't.

At the very least you can respond to my response to the OP. Have you even read it?

I showed that, cumulating in your current favorite proof text in Heb.

Not sure how transcribing a commentary addresses the issue of whether Israel or anyone prior to Israel was eternally redeemed.

And what you also showed was your proclivity for making false charges...even after you have been corrected on that before:

To say that Not one member of Israel was eternally redeemed and forgiven through the Blood of Christ.

You are bearing false witness.

And it is because you don't understand and you don't want to.

The distinction is between Israel and the Church. That was the context the statement was given, but just as you show context is irrelevant in your collage of verses, even so the context of your opponents statement is irrelevant.

Shameful.

Icon OR and others continued with other verses that back up that Israel was redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

Every post has been addressed.

You want to show me where either made a relevant statement that shows that anyone in Israel was eternally redeemed?

You got on me for not listening to the OP in another thread, lets see if you will listen to this OP when its from a different camp?

I'm getting on you now twofold: first misrepresenting my statement and bearing false witness several times (even after corrected), and then trying to redefine the OP to suit your buddies' nonsense.

And this is your problem...you do not understand that the Body is One.

In your mind there are distinct camps.

There is one Body, and one Word of God. That is what you need to learn. If you do, you might dig yourself out of the "camp" you are in now, and be a part of the Body as you are commanded to.

I was nice I followed your rules and it still got me no where with you,

Nice?

How is making someone the focus of an OP nice?

How is bearing false witness nice?

How is presenting sloppy theology nice?

You don't need to get anywhere with me...your problems are internal. You have gotten caught up in a clique that is extremely unhealthy for you. And all because you rejected those who once taught you. What, did somebody there offend you?

so I have no incentive to play by your rules any more

Any more?

Hilarious.

This is why I said before trying to talk with you is pointless.

as you have proved that you will change them to suit your whims.

That was you.

Here is the focus:

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Not one member of Israel was eternally redeemed and forgiven through the Blood of Christ. Every member of the Church is.

This statement was made in the thread about arguments against the Post Trib Rapture, but it is a statement I want to focus more on.

But the only ones that can be found to actually focus on what you said you wanted to focus on are myself and DHK.

That is fact.

I will continue to stand for Truth no matter what you say to me or about me as that is what Christians are called to do.

You live in a fantasy realm.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You're welcome, now please stop derailing it.

But I do want to say thank you for continuing to prove our points

You're quite welcome.

Now you can respond to my response to the OP.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
And the Gospels are where He does that.

Not Genesis-Malachi.

No-one of Israel was eternally redeemed.

Everyone in the Church is.

Christ obtained eternal redemption for all of the Faithful on the Cross.

This is simply basic.


God bless.

Abraham we are told had his faith counted to him for righteousness just was we do and every other believer has

No-one is debating that. That too is basic.

In view is the distinction between the Church and Israel, and the fact that eternal redemption was obtained through Christ and specifically through His Work at a specific point in history makes that distinction clear quite well.

Now tell me, was Israel the People of God under Law?

Was the Covenant of Law distinct from the New Covenant?

Were those under Law eternally redeemed while they still offered up sacrifice according to the Law?

These are basic questions posed to the OP and her cohorts, and not one of them will answer.

And in regards to Abraham, God is my Father, not Abraham. My faith is not ascribed to believing what Abraham, nor doing what Abraham did, but is the result of the Ministry of the Comforter enlightening my natural mind to the Gospel.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And finally caught up.

See you guys in the next round.




God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

Not sure how transcribing a commentary addresses the issue of whether Israel or anyone prior to Israel was eternally redeemed.

That is the nicest thing you have ever said to me. Thank you so much. Now I do disagree, there is no way that my 2 am musings are on par with any published commentary, but its clear you think my musings are worthy of publishing and I just have to thank you again for that complement.