The Reformation: Which side was right?

[Maverick]

Few, Jude? Some estimates are at 40% of all priests are gay. We may only be looking at the tip of the iceberg. Not everyone comes forth especially when the priest has been moved or is dead. The celibacy heresy was very strong in bringing this about because it made the RCI the ideal haven for gays. Once infilitrated they can take control and they may well have since the coverup is so good. Would Christ bless a house full of gay priests? I trow not. Is celibacy a heresy? I doubly trow so! 1 Tim 1:1-4 spells that out as well as the meatless Friday nonsense.
Ichabod has been across that door for centuries and it cannot be defended. Speaking lies under the quise of protecting the reputation of the priest and thinking that truth needs notto be communicated fits in there as well. Not sure if you took your name from the Book or the novena, but the novena will not help you and the RCI is bankrupt.

 

[Rev. G]

Three Points:

1) For those of you who do not think that Baptists are Protestants, you have absolutely no understanding of our heritage or our history.

2) The Roman Catholic Church is a false church. The RCC denies justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone, and therefore denies the Gospel. The RCC is not merely "another denomination."

3) The Protestant Reformation was the GREATEST revival that has ever taken place in the history of the Church.

3)

 

[Bible-belted]

"Again, when someone tells me that Scripture is their authority, they are really telling me that they are their own authority."

Wrong.

"So, does everyone, or even all Baptists, agee that the definition of Sola Scriptura is and always has been "the norm that norms all other norms"?"

If they know what they're talking about. But most have not studied it.

"Be careful, if you disagree you shall be judged (not by me, but by certain of your peers) as misinformed and making misrepresentations."

That hapens in RC circles over numerous issues too. I'm not worried.

"Perhaps we should start a poll on the various definitions of Sola Scriptura. I have found several versions posted on the web."

Stick to actual scholarly sources and you might learn something.

"What misinformed version do all of you hold to?"

My "version" is not misinformed. Yours obviously is though.

"Really, Latreia, you should grant your Baptist brothers a little soul liberty."

Soul Liberty has nothing todo with this.

"Three Points:

1) For those of you who do not think that Baptists are Protestants, you have absolutely no understanding of our heritage or our history."

Not so. Some strains of Baptist are basically anabaptist, others are not.

 

[Rev. G]

My friend in the Great White North, were not the Anabaptists part of the "Radical Reformation"? While they were not a part of the Magisterial Reform, they were still Protestants, eh!

Over and above this, when Baptists emerged from England in the 1600s they came out of the Separatist Movement (Puritans), which was Protestant.

Rev. G

 

[Kiffin]

Great point Rev. G. The Anabaptists were protestants and the Reformation should be divided into 2 movements.

1. The Magisterial Reformation - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Bucer, Cranmer, Knox with it's great emphasis on Justification by faith alone

2. The Radical Reformation- The Anabaptists such as the Swiss Brethern, Mennonites, Hutterites etc..with their great emphasis on a regenerate church following the apostlolic pattern.

Baptists drink from both of these wells. Baptists are the continuation of the Radical Reformation with a more sounder and balanced theology and at the same time were the Left wing of the Puritan movement. Both of these movements help create the Baptist movement and shape our theology.

[ September 17, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

[Jude]

Rev G., you said,
2) The Roman Catholic Church is a false church. The RCC denies justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone, and therefore denies the Gospel. The RCC is not merely "another denomination."

While not a RC myself, (and have disagreements with Rome over some things) I would say that the above reflects a continuing misunderstanding of Roman doctrine. Sola gratia is the foundation of Roman doctrine of salvation. They believe that God's grace alone accounts for salvation, that a person alone cannot add one thing for his salvation. That being said, rather than grace being 'imputed' they believe that it is 'infused' making a person holy. A person cooperates with God's grace (i.e. grace annointed works), a 'working out' of that salvation in 'fear and trembling'. I would suspect that some scholar, somewhere, has highlighted the similarities between this understanding of salvation and that of the Wesleyans/Arminians as well. Now please, don't make a 'Roman' apologist, I am not. But I think in our dialogue with our Roman brethren (yes, I would count them as such)we must 'fight fair' and understand what the other is saying/teaching before we engage in dialogue and disagreements.

 

[Rev. G]

The difference on the issue of imputed versus infused righteousness is a drastic one!!!

If you think that the Roman Catholic Church holds to sola gratia, you are sadly mistaken. Have you ever read the declarations made at Trent? There the RCC has declared (and never rescinded) anathemas for those who who hold to sola gratia. The RCC holds to "grace by faith in Christ", but that is a far different cry than grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.

I'm not making unfair accusations. I know and understand the RCC position quite well.

Tell me, friend, what is the Gospel?

Rev. G

P. S. (You are right to bring up the Arminian / Wesleyan position, which is a retreat away from the Reformation and back towards Rome).

[ September 19, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

[Ps104_33]

If it wasnt for the Reformation we all would be speaking Spanish and worshipping Mary.

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
If it wasnt for the Reformation we all would be speaking Spanish and worshipping Mary.

Ahhhh!!!


NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Maverick]

Jude, you can't clean up a grave yard. It is a house of death and all we are seeing is a bt of the stench. The worse is yet to come.

 

[Jude]

What is the gospel? Many passages could be chosen, but how about...

(Mark 1:15 NIV) "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Repent (a work) and believe (trust, acknowledge)the good news.

And yes, whilst I be an Anglican, I'm also an Arminian. Sorry

 

[Jude]

As was the great John Wesley....

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by Maverick:
Jude, you can't clean up a grave yard. It is a house of death and all we are seeing is a bt of the stench. The worse is yet to come.

I believe there is more than one 'graveyard'. And perhaps, even now, the Lord is walking amongst the tombs, calling forth the dead to life.

 

[Maverick]

That is a possibility, Jude, but when God raises the dead He does not leave them in the cemetary, so when a person gets saved in the Catholic Institution or any other dead denomination, those people will come out.

I was once called to preach at a church called, "The Church of the Living God." I had no idea where they got my resume as I thought with a name like that they might be Charismatic. I went and found out that they were started by a Sunday School class of a Presbyterian Church. They had watched the Rapture, Trib, and Burning Hell movies that were popular at the time and they all got saved. They started spreading the Good News and their joy with the rest of the church and met with little if any positive response. They realized they were among the dead and moved out and started this church.

The Spirit would be terribly grieved, quenched and resisted in many denominations and the RCI. He would bring His people out of Sodom. Lot tried to live there and he suffered rather than winning the people. The Scripture tells us to come out and be separate so why do you think the Holy Spirit would countermand the Word and comfort people to stay in the graveyard? It would not happen.

 

[Jude]

You're obviously much-more anti-Catholic than I. I believe that there are many Christians in the R. Catholic Church, as in the Orthodox, and many others. I just believe that God is calling people who were once dead out of their own Tombs, to experience the fullness of a relationship with Jesus Christ. And I believe, that in this century, the Church will come together in some-sort of visible unity. And part of that will be the elimination of any doctrines/practices that fall short of orthodoxy. We will not all speak 'spanish', nor will all worship Mary (another misconception of many Protestants re: Catholics), but the unity will be so visible and so real that pagans will say of all of us, "Your words betray you. You too know this Galilean."

 

[Rev. G]

Jude, it is too bad that as an Anglican you have abandoned the doctrine of the Thirty-Nine Articles and become an Arminian. Yes, John Wesley was obvious an Arminian. It's too bad he didn't retain the Anglican doctrinal roots, like his brother Charles and his colleague, Whitefield.

To say that one is in disagreement with Rome is not to say that one is "Anti-Catholic." Let's at least understand, though, that the "Gospel" of the RCC is different than the Gospel of Sola Gratia.

Rev. G

 

[Maverick]

There will be a visible one world "church" but it will not be assembled of God. It will be the organization of the the False Prophet and its head will be a Pope. Even the Catholics fear the coming of an evil Pope. Your desire to return and merge with them only proves them to be the harlot since her offspring (Anglican, Lutheran, etc.) who were once chaste also choose spiritual whoredom and return to Mom.

I am not against Catholic people. For the most part, they have no clue. I am against the dogma and the Institution.

As to worshipping Mary, if I need her prayers to get to Jesus then Jesus lied when He said come unto me. he should have said come unto Mary, Jude or somebody to get to me. There is also a very strong movement to make her a co-redemptrix. That may not sound like worship to you, but is does to me.

In fact, the Anglicans and their refusal to kick out Westcott and Hort during the revision of 1881 is what helped start the apostasy that is leading to this unholy merger so I am not surprised that you are for it.

As for Arminianism, if there is something I can do to keep my salvation then it is ultimately my works that save and not Christ. He gave me an invitation to Heaven and paid the entry fee to
the race, but my works assure my winning it and it is not finished as He said on the Cross. It was only beginning.

 

[Jude]

Brothers, some of you need to re-read the Parables of the Sower and the Prodigal Son. Falling away is possible! Without grace we are lost...yet, by grace we must choose obedience or we will die in our sins. Isn't one of the messages of the book of Hebrews just that? (Heb.4.11?).

On another note, something wonderful is coming up...

CONFESSING THE FAITH - Reclaiming Historic Faith and Teaching for the 21st Century


Date: 10-24-02 to 10-26-02
Location: Adams Mark Airport Hotel
Address: 2544 Executive Drive
Indianapolis, IN
Sponsor: The Association for Church Renewal
Price: $98.00 before Sept. 24, 2002. $125.00 after that date.
Contact: Debbie Thompson
(317) 356-9729

A first-ever national convocation to unify and encourage mainline Christians in North America in their Reaffirmation of classic, orthodox Christianity. Join us as we celebrate our oneness in Jesus Christ, share strategies and build networks for mainline renewal, and discern what the Holy Spirit is doing in our churches and world.

Date: 10-24-02 to 10-26-02

The Association for Church Renewal is a fellowship of evangelical renewal leaders from mainline churches in North America. Member organizations include:

American Anglican Council -- Episcopal Church U.S.A.
American Baptist Evangelicals -- American Baptist Church
Biblical Witness Fellowship -- United Church of Christ
Community of Concern -- United Church of Canada
Confessing Movement Within the United Methodist Church
Disciple Renewal -- Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Episcopalians United -- Episcopal Church U.S.A.
Fellowship of St. James -- publishes Touchstone magazine
Good News -- United Methodist Church renewal ministry
Institute on Religion and Democracy -- Washington, DC
National Alliance of Covenanting Congregations -- United Church of Canada
RENEW Network for Women -- Renewal for United Methodist women
Presbyterian Layman -- Presbyterian Church U.S.A.

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by Maverick:

As to worshipping Mary, if I need her prayers to get to Jesus then Jesus lied when He said come unto me. he should have said come unto Mary, Jude or somebody to get to me. There is also a very strong movement to make her a co-redemptrix. That may not sound like worship to you, but is does to me.

I'm not-at-all wanting to get into a 'Mary' debate here...but if you take what you said to its' logical conclusion, doesn't asking OTHERS to pray for you just as unbiblical? Why not just take your prayer concerns directly to Jesus and leave them there? Why ask others to pray for you? Another question, in regard to 'Mary' is this: What was the early church attitude toward her? Did they 'petition'/pray to her,did they 'petition'/pray to the saints, or did they offer prayers to Jesus alone?

 

[Rev. G]

Brothers, some of you need to re-read the Parables of the Sower and the Prodigal Son. Falling away is possible! Without grace we are lost...yet, by grace we must choose obedience or we will die in our sins. Isn't one of the messages of the book of Hebrews just that? (Heb.4.11?).

Jude:
You need to study the Parable of the Sower / Soils. Where does it point to "falling away" (an actual believer losing salvation) being possible? Also, quite simply, if you think that it is up to us to maintain our salvation, you simply do not understand the nature of grace. Also, read Hebrews a bit more carefully. The writer of Hebrews continually points out how Christ is superior and what He has ALREADY accomplished on behalf of the behavior.

Rev. G