The Reformers and their Stepchildren

[Covenanter]

I'm rereading this book mentioned on the forum 10 years ago - My copy is 20 years old.

This is my 5-star review:

The Protestant churches & the musical world are celebrating 500 years of the Reformation.
Sadly "simple" believers who followed the teaching of Christ suffered from a new persecuting body as the Reformers were "adopted" by the civil authorities. Non-conformists, independents & those who rejected what amount to state baptism of infants, & who expected godly living of believers all suffered.
Verduin records their experience from all sides, & looks for a way forward for us.
Sixty years on we can see our own problems arising from church/state aggression against evangelical Bible believers. We need to stand our ground, more firmly than Luther, on Scripture & the Gospel, but without backing from the authorities.

 

[Covenanter]

These forum posts are from 10 years ago -

Thank you, DQ. :thumbs:

Here's that book title in case anyone was waiting for it: The Reformers and their Stepchildren by Leonard Verduin. We actually went through it chapter-by-chapter on another board -- very interesting!

From it, we can see most all societies before America as "sacral" -- societies set up by "religionists," pagan and "God-centered" alike (Babel, ... Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Israel, Rome, Reform nations) for their own agrandizement in the name of religion/state religion. True worship of God was persecuted in all of these to a greater or lesser degree -- which is why the Puritans and such "stepchildren fled Reform countries and established "compostie (freedom of religion) societies" in America.

Does that suggest anything to anyone regarding the roots of Reform theology?? Like that they were trying to - or making the pretense of - setting up Christ's kingdom on earth??

skypair

As I understand it, then, these men felt the spirit of Calvinism spoke to them through scripture. Would that be fair? Or was it the Spirit of God that spoke to them through Calvinism? It's like the quandry today among Catholics -- does the Pope and tradition speak for God or does God speak through the Pope and tradition. As we all know, neither!

Let me say this -- Calvinism/Lutheranism/Reform were based on the foundation of Christ built upon by men of near-term Catholic persuasion and not all the "house" was "swept" at one time. For instance, baptism and communion remained similar in practice and in rationale which led to the continued notion that infants had original sin guilt and that communion was the administration of grace. The true church (there are Calvinists among us) has since moved beyond these notions by actually admitting what Luther said we should -- scripture alone.

So as to these earlier "witnesses" -- it was the best revelation they had at the time. What did the schools teach? What was the "buzz?" What were the "heresies" being fended off?

I have a very engaging book you both ought to read* called "The Reformers and Their Stepchildren" by Leonard Verduin. It tells about these "stepchildren" of the Reform Movement, those who broke away on issues like infant baptism, communion, etc. -- issues of scripture vs. "tradition."

skypair

*On Zolaboard a few years ago, we discussed it chapter-by-chapter. It was that interesting!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

An excellent book, Dr. Verduin clearly lays out the thinking of Anabaptists. It helps that the book was the result of a series of chapel lectures. Though, he had spent time on the Continent researching original documentation. He also lays out the dangers of sacralism (read the book for the definition). What makes the book so authoritative is Dr. Verduin was Dutch Reformed.

 

[Covenanter]

Basically the Reformers continued the Constantinian principle of church-state. Two swords, the church organising the religion & the state enforcing it. As in Muslim & Communist lands.

In England up to about 1835 couples could ONLY get married in the CofE - having been "baptised" in the CofE. You couldn't go to university or have a position in government unless you were a baptised, practising Anglican.

To baptise repentant sinners who had been baptised by the established church was a capital offense. Drowning was considered the appropriate sentence (make the punishment fit the crime) though burning was practised also.

And if you have a church-state link the whole community comprises a vast majority of unregenerate. The baptism service has these words:

"Seeing now. dearly beloved brethren, that this child is regenerate (born again) and grafted into the body of Christ's church, we give thanks to almighty God for these benefits...... "
​

The ultimate irony concerns a godly woman who refused sex with a priest, & was therefore denounced as an Anabaptist & burned as a heretic.

John 19:12 From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, ‘If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.’

13 When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14 It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.

‘Here is your king,’ Pilate said to the Jews.

15 But they shouted, ‘Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!’

‘Shall I crucify your king?’ Pilate asked.

‘We have no king but Caesar,’ the chief priests answered.​

The vital New Covenant twin principles of accepting Jesus Christ as Lord & Saviour of Christians with a living & active faith, while living as loyal citizens of the state (Romans 13) was completely lost.

Acts 4:18 Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John replied, ‘Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! 20 As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.’​

John 18:33 Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, ‘Are you the king of the Jews?’

34 ‘Is that your own idea,’ Jesus asked, ‘or did others talk to you about me?’

35 ‘Am I a Jew?’ Pilate replied. ‘Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?’

36 Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.’

37 ‘You are a king, then!’ said Pilate.

Jesus answered, ‘You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.’
​

So they crucified Jesus, & persecuted his followers.

 

[Covenanter]

I have prepared a sermon based on information from this book. It's on-line here.

 

[Covenanter]

It's not just a problem from 500 years ago - it's going on it every country in the world & every religion - the state controls the religion & is opposed to conversion, & especially Gospel preaching & independent churches.

We should all be concerned in the "free countries" of the rise of the "religion" of secularism, political correctness, & sexual inclusivism.

Come on @TCassidy @robycop3 & @Yeshua1 & @agedman
You've argued against nearly everything I've posted - I challenge you to post constructively. @John of Japan what is the situation in Japan?

Has "The Trail of Blood" been discussed here recently?

 

[prophecy70]

We should all be concerned in the "free countries" of the rise of the "religion" of secularism, political correctness, & sexual inclusivism.

Christianity became its weakest when Rome became free, before that pagans and Christians were separate and you knew it, afterwards they mixed.

I thank the Lord we live in a free country, but the downside to it is that there is a lot of fake christians, fake churches. Anyone can call themselves a Christian these days. Its sadly such a weak term.