The reign of amillenial theology

[Daniel David]

My original post is historical fact. Like I said, you can get the same information from amillenialists. How do I know that? I have read their works also. Berkhoff is a classic example of an amiller who puts its origins with Origen (a heretic) and its systematic elements to Augustine.

You don't have to buy into "my eschatology". You must accept what the Scripture says. Fortunately, I agree with Scripture. You prefer ignorance. Post after post of yours is just a tit-for-tat. You aren't debating. Man up or back off Ken, or go talk to some dogs or something.

 

[KenH]

My dogs make more sense than you are currently doing, DD.

How about posting some proof to back up your assertions as to historical fact? Why can't you provide proof in this thread?

I try understand what the Bible says and the Bible certainly doesn't support premillennialism in any shape, fashion, or form.

Drop your presuppositions, DD, and let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[Daniel David]

What do you want for proof? Are you really so ignorant of eschatology?

Maybe you are.

Even Berkhoff and Gerstner concide the points I made in the opening post.

This debate is worthless with you because of your own ignorance.

If there is anyone else who would like to try, have at it.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Someone show me just one text that either hints at amill or disproves that Christ will reign upon the earth. Come on folks, just one. In two pages, no one has been able to do either.

John 5:28, 29 [KJV]
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The Roman Catholic Church is being dragged across the pages of this forum as a "red herring".

 

[Daniel David]

How does that prove amill or disprove premill?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Even Berkhoff and Gerstner concide the points I made in the opening post.

Sorry, DD, but I have interacted with you too long to trust your statement. How about proving your statement.

Oh, that's right. You haven't shown the ability to prove your statement, or to prove that premillennialism is Biblical.

Of course, the latter statement you can't prove as premillennialism is a false teaching, maybe even bordering on heresy.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
How does that prove amill or disprove premill?

The just and unjust are raised at the same time, DD. Those verses give no credence to any time lag between when the resurrection takes place for different classes of people.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
How does that prove amill or disprove premill?

Simple, one and only one resurrection of the dead! No pre-trib rapture, no pre-mill resurrection, only a post millennium resurrection of both the just and the unjust!!!!!!

 

[Daniel David]

Ken, my resources that have the information you request are not presently with me. It is obvious that your study of eschatology is so limited, as these even basic facts escape you.

This discussion is like a teacher telling a student to read the next chapter to understand the story, but the student can't read. You are the student.

Come back in a few years with your study isn't limited to those who think premillenial theology is borderline heresy. Snicker snicker.

 

[Daniel David]

Oldreg, I will address that one when I get home. Tell me though, why does Revelation 20 mention two separate resurrections, one at the beginning of the millenium and one at the end?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Ken, my resources that have the information you request are not presently with me

Then why should any of us believe you. Sorry to say, I have not found you to be someone I can trust on this board.

Will you soon have the info in your possession and present it to us?

Or maybe one of your fellow premillers can bail you out of your jam.

 

[Daniel David]

I am not at home Ken. Get a grip.

 

[KenH]

That's why I asked if you could present the info later, DD.

Calm down. Breathe, my friend, breathe.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Daniel,

Why is it that you must always argue in such a spiteful manner?

Anyway I have several issues with your statements:

1. You have asserted as fact that the early church was premillenial. I've heard this time and again (usually from pretrib premills). I'd assert that in fact there were some who were "millenialists" but many were NOT. The Didache is often cited as millenarian as have the writings of Clement, both of which are arguably NOT millenarian at all if examined closely.

2. You assert that amillenialism did not exist until Origen. But if much of the early church figures were NOT millenarian then what were they?

3. You ask that we give at least ONE verse that supports the "amill" position. Obviously our eschatology (yours or mine) comes from several different places in the Bible. Even you would have to admit that it would be nice if a particular Biblical author would have written a concise and plain treatise on ALL of the escahtological themes.

I would list several scriptural challenges to the premill position.

1. Why is there a 2000 year break before the 70th week of Daniel?

2. Jesus refers to the "son of man" coming on the clouds of heaven - similar to the cloud motif in Daniel. This is arguably signifies judgment. Thus the Olivet discourse was quite likely referring to the 70 AD destruction of the temple (this generation).

3. If trumpets announce Christ's coming why is the rapture seen as secret? Jesus said it would be like lightning - no one would miss it!

4. If there is to be a pretrib rapture then why does Paul not mention that the believers wouldn't be around to see the antichrist in 2 Thessalonians?

I'm interested (and assume Ken is as well) in your answers. And you may give them without calling me pathetic, liberal, lost, ignorant or otherwise!

 

[Jensen]

2 Peter 3:3-13 "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness."

Does Peter believe a premill position?

 

[KenH]

No.

 

[Grasshopper]

And you may give them without calling me pathetic, liberal, lost, ignorant or otherwise!

Good luck with that.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Oldreg, I will address that one when I get home. Tell me though, why does Revelation 20 mention two separate resurrections, one at the beginning of the millenium and one at the end?

Just so you can rephrase your question I will post the appropriate verses from Revelation 20.

KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

NASB
1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

I show the passage in two versions so take your pick and then show me where it talks about two resurrections. Perhaps my eyesight is worse than I thought.

Perhaps you can eisegete verses 5&6 to get two resurrections.

It only mentions the first. I can't find the second. Perhaps my eyesight is worse than I thought.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by KenH:
No.

Correct.

 

[Daniel David]

Okay, I am home to address each issue.

My apologies Ken. It wasn't until I got home that I remembered that I sold my Berkhoff systematic on eBay. Now, whether you choose to believe me is your call. I did study his view on the issue though and have accurately represented him.