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The reign of amillenial theology
- Thread starter Daniel David
- Start date
Daniel David
New Member
Ken, I was actually just thinking of this verse when I was typing my last response.
I don't have to get around it, as it does not block my view.
First, it was NOT his intention to establish his earthly reign yet.
Second, his kingdom is not of this world. That is, his kindgom is of another world. According to the prophecy of Daniel 2, his kingdom will come in a cataclymic way and will violently overpower and overcome all opposition.
Daniel David
New Member
Justification occurs when God declares the believing sinner to be righteous.
Premillenialism is a doctrine a person embraces through diligent study and maturity.
Some people die before their eschatology has properly matured.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Christians are already in the kingdom and are already priests in that kingdom, even while on the earth after Jesus finished His work of redemption.
Rev. 1:5-6 (ESV)
and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood [6] and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Daniel David
New Member
Christians are already in the kingdom and are already priests in that kingdom, even while on the earth after Jesus finished His work of redemption.
Rev. 1:5-6 (ESV)
and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood [6] and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, I agree that we are already a kingdom of priests. I am asking you why believers in heaven looked forward to reigning upon the earth.
Daniel David
New Member
Yep. And it did. You might have noticed that the Roman Empire lost in its persecution of the church. </font>[/QUOTE]The church did not and has not replaced all opposing kingdoms. There was nothing gradual about Daniel's vision.
Btw, when political rome fell, it was replaced by a much more heinous rome, which continued to persecute believers.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Sure there is. The word "became" indicates progression from a stone to a mountain.
Daniel 2:35 (ESV)
Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
KenH
Well-Known Member
That is early in the book of Revelation before the destruction of Jerusalem and/or Rome(depending on how one interprets the symbolic language in the book) is described. Either way, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. ended the major Jewish persecution of the church, and the destruction of the Roman Empire ended the major Roman persecution of the church.
Charles Meadows
New Member
" Chaz, Irenaeus was premillenial. Do you not read well? "
Yes DD I read quite well and quite alot! Evidently more than certain others here.
I don't suppose you would care to clarify why Irenaeus believed a "millenium" was necessary and what he specifically thought the "millenium" would entail?
I suppose you lost your books on Irenaeus too huh?
Did you ever think of trying to sell used cars for some extra cash?
Yes DD I read quite well and quite alot! Evidently more than certain others here.
I don't suppose you would care to clarify why Irenaeus believed a "millenium" was necessary and what he specifically thought the "millenium" would entail?
I suppose you lost your books on Irenaeus too huh?
Did you ever think of trying to sell used cars for some extra cash?
Daniel David
New Member
Chaz, I have ordered his book, Against Heresies, where I have seen several authors quote. The book has shipped. I will post it as soon as I get it.
Daniel David
New Member
Ken, you said that verse 4 is about those already in heaven, and verse 5 is about those who had not died yet.
A major problem with that is that verse 5 refers to these people as 'the rest of the dead'. Are you suggesting that John was referring to people who were presently walking the earth as 'the rest of the dead'? That is crazy.
You have given the same word multiple definitions in the same text.
You are just fighting tooth and nail the truth of premillenialism aren't you. This kind of bufoonery needs to stop.
A major problem with that is that verse 5 refers to these people as 'the rest of the dead'. Are you suggesting that John was referring to people who were presently walking the earth as 'the rest of the dead'? That is crazy.
You have given the same word multiple definitions in the same text.
You are just fighting tooth and nail the truth of premillenialism aren't you. This kind of bufoonery needs to stop.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Brother David,
At this point I must confess my knowledge is limited to only knowing that premillennialism is a false teaching left over from first century Judaism.
I cannot give you a systematic eschatology until I decide if amillennialism, postmillennialism, or preterism is the way to go, or if some other methodology is the way to go in eschatology.
Therefore, I will give you your wish and not argue with you over the matter at the moment. I will step back and simply let others more settled on the matter cross swords with you and defeat your false teaching.
But I do hope that the Holy Spirit will one day open your heart to the truth that premillennialism is a false teaching and that you will one day search for the true eschatology as I am doing.
Good night, brother David.
At this point I must confess my knowledge is limited to only knowing that premillennialism is a false teaching left over from first century Judaism.
I cannot give you a systematic eschatology until I decide if amillennialism, postmillennialism, or preterism is the way to go, or if some other methodology is the way to go in eschatology.
Therefore, I will give you your wish and not argue with you over the matter at the moment. I will step back and simply let others more settled on the matter cross swords with you and defeat your false teaching.
But I do hope that the Holy Spirit will one day open your heart to the truth that premillennialism is a false teaching and that you will one day search for the true eschatology as I am doing.
Good night, brother David.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Taken literally He also said the rest of the dead were the first resurrection.
Daniel David
New Member
No he didn't. I already know what you are going to do, but it doesn't work. I will show why as soon as you do what I know you will do.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I'm Back!!! I enjoy my two week vacation! I survived two major winter storms while driving on long journey. First, I left Michigan for Florida. I stopped visit my deaf friends' house in Ohio near Dayton. That area received over a foot of snow. I took few pictures of them. While driving down on I-75. I saw many vechiles trap in the ditch off of I-75. Even, big trucks trap there also!
I drove toward Kentucky in the downtown of Cincinnait. I got in long jam traffic on I-75 6 miles north away from the bridge. It took me for a hour to reach bridge. I thought it was road construction. But, I found out, when after past the bridge, reach Kentucky. I notice I-75 were fill with icy and snow. Many vechiles bumping over thick of ice and snow, it was so messy, I drove over it, feel like I am driving on the mountians, because I-75 was fill with ice and snow look like rocks cover I-75. I drove and bumped over them so rough!! I gave Covington, KY's road condition report, 'F' , because they do not put salt or plow I-75. It was so TERRIBLE!!!
I enjoy vacation in Florida. The weather was so nice down there. I did drove all the way to Key West!! The islands are beautiful. Sunset at Key West was at 5:50 pm(Jan 1). I took some pictures of Key West, include picture of me stand at the southest point of U.S. at the port. I enjoy there.
While I was in Key West, I watched Rose Bowl, Mich against Texas. It was so very good game! Michigan defense should have tackle Texas quarterback Young many times for sure. They just missed him. If Wolverines tackle Young, for sure Mich could have win the game. Oh well.
Three days ago, I drove to Nashville, Tenn. Visit my deaf friend. We watched Orange Bowl. I support UCS. Trojans was so awersome team!! That game was mismatch. My friend told me, he thinks Auburn should play against USC.
Yesterday, I drove to Ohio, visit my deaf friends' house. I decide to stay there overnight, because of bad weather around Detroit and northern Ohio area on I-75.
Today, there was flood at my deaf friends' house. Two roads are closed because of flood flow over them. But, my friends decide to drive over the flood in the truck, so, I drove my car, and follow them through the flood. I made it over the flood.
While I drove on I-75 on the way to Mich. I saw ice cover all trees between Piqua (north of Dayton) and south of Toledo. Many restaraunts, gas stations are closed because of no power. LOt of trees damaged from ice storm. I tried to stop gas, my car was almost empty gas. There were many gas stations. So, I try another exit to find opening gas stations. I got no lucky past several exists. Finally I made it at near Findlay. I filled up gas, and make it home, I arrived here at 5:45 pm.
I am so behind to reply on these back to you. Later tonight, I will make replies to you on this topic.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I drove toward Kentucky in the downtown of Cincinnait. I got in long jam traffic on I-75 6 miles north away from the bridge. It took me for a hour to reach bridge. I thought it was road construction. But, I found out, when after past the bridge, reach Kentucky. I notice I-75 were fill with icy and snow. Many vechiles bumping over thick of ice and snow, it was so messy, I drove over it, feel like I am driving on the mountians, because I-75 was fill with ice and snow look like rocks cover I-75. I drove and bumped over them so rough!! I gave Covington, KY's road condition report, 'F' , because they do not put salt or plow I-75. It was so TERRIBLE!!!
I enjoy vacation in Florida. The weather was so nice down there. I did drove all the way to Key West!! The islands are beautiful. Sunset at Key West was at 5:50 pm(Jan 1). I took some pictures of Key West, include picture of me stand at the southest point of U.S. at the port. I enjoy there.
While I was in Key West, I watched Rose Bowl, Mich against Texas. It was so very good game! Michigan defense should have tackle Texas quarterback Young many times for sure. They just missed him. If Wolverines tackle Young, for sure Mich could have win the game. Oh well.
Three days ago, I drove to Nashville, Tenn. Visit my deaf friend. We watched Orange Bowl. I support UCS. Trojans was so awersome team!! That game was mismatch. My friend told me, he thinks Auburn should play against USC.
Yesterday, I drove to Ohio, visit my deaf friends' house. I decide to stay there overnight, because of bad weather around Detroit and northern Ohio area on I-75.
Today, there was flood at my deaf friends' house. Two roads are closed because of flood flow over them. But, my friends decide to drive over the flood in the truck, so, I drove my car, and follow them through the flood. I made it over the flood.
While I drove on I-75 on the way to Mich. I saw ice cover all trees between Piqua (north of Dayton) and south of Toledo. Many restaraunts, gas stations are closed because of no power. LOt of trees damaged from ice storm. I tried to stop gas, my car was almost empty gas. There were many gas stations. So, I try another exit to find opening gas stations. I got no lucky past several exists. Finally I made it at near Findlay. I filled up gas, and make it home, I arrived here at 5:45 pm.
I am so behind to reply on these back to you. Later tonight, I will make replies to you on this topic.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Several points to be made in the interests of shedding more light than heat (although I fear that may be doubtful given the track record of ad hominems on this thread so far...):-
1. Pre-millenialism/ chiliaism was initially in NT times adhered to by Jewish extremists mixing elements of Messianism and zealotry and who believed in a 1000-year reign of the Messiah on earth. This was carried through to some extent into the church in the NT/ apostolic period and needed correction. Evidence for this comes from not just extra-Biblical sources such as Flavius Josephus but also the Western Text (the early redaction of Acts) which strongly suggests that Apollos and even possibly Paul were influenced by it in their early Christian careers and needed correcting (see for example Acts 11:19-26 and Acts 18:1-7, 24-28 in the WT)
2. It was looked upon with suspicion by most of the Early Church Fathers and finally and authoritatively condemned by the Council of Constantinople in 381, the only pre-modern example of it being revived subsequently being the highly dubious pseudo-Ephraim
3. It was revived in the modern era initially by a dubious Jesuit in the 17th century and then of course more famously by Darby under the influence of the rather dubious Irvingites and the even more dubious Margaret McDonald, a poor mad Scottish girl.
4. Nuff said
Yours in Christ
Matt
1. Pre-millenialism/ chiliaism was initially in NT times adhered to by Jewish extremists mixing elements of Messianism and zealotry and who believed in a 1000-year reign of the Messiah on earth. This was carried through to some extent into the church in the NT/ apostolic period and needed correction. Evidence for this comes from not just extra-Biblical sources such as Flavius Josephus but also the Western Text (the early redaction of Acts) which strongly suggests that Apollos and even possibly Paul were influenced by it in their early Christian careers and needed correcting (see for example Acts 11:19-26 and Acts 18:1-7, 24-28 in the WT)
2. It was looked upon with suspicion by most of the Early Church Fathers and finally and authoritatively condemned by the Council of Constantinople in 381, the only pre-modern example of it being revived subsequently being the highly dubious pseudo-Ephraim
3. It was revived in the modern era initially by a dubious Jesuit in the 17th century and then of course more famously by Darby under the influence of the rather dubious Irvingites and the even more dubious Margaret McDonald, a poor mad Scottish girl.
4. Nuff said
Yours in Christ
Matt
DavidFWhite3
New Member
I am a Master of Divinity degreed student from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville. I earned a good three fourths of that degree from Duke University Divinity School. Before that I earned a B.A. Degree in Religious Studies from Furman University. I am not trying to brag or set myself up as some kind of ultimate authority here. I am simply saying, that if Daniel David is right, everything I ever studied is wrong. The man needs to read a basic book on Church History. He is not a stupid man, but he is a very ignorant man. At least every scholar in the field of Church History and Historical Theology that I have ever read would agree with my opinion about Daniel David.
Daniel; Please do not take this as a personal attack. I am just amazed that somehow you have an understanding of these things that are totally inconsistent with the overwhelming number of scholars in this field.Pray tell us where you get your great knowledge.
DFW3,
Not impressed by an M.Div. or even a PHD or THD. Would be impressed if you dealt with the issue in any kind of a substantial manner.
With your pedigree (Furman, Duke) I am not suprised at your position, nor that you have not been exposed to premillennial church history. Do they even use the Bible at Duke now? Pretty sure that Furman discarded the idea that Scripture was any kind of authority several years back.
I suppose you hold to Graf-Welhaussen and the documentary source theory as opposed to God-breathed inspiration? Would like an answer to that one.
How about the crossing of the Red Sea? Is the Biblical account to be taken literally, or do we rationalize it away as a result of centuries of "oral tradition" gone awry?
A bit surprised that Southern would grant an M.Div. when 3/4 of the work was done elsewhere, particularly at Duke! Thought that the liberals were mostly gone.
Your degrees do not impress me. If you were to deal with the issues in a substantial way, that would be a little more impressive.
Not impressed by an M.Div. or even a PHD or THD. Would be impressed if you dealt with the issue in any kind of a substantial manner.
With your pedigree (Furman, Duke) I am not suprised at your position, nor that you have not been exposed to premillennial church history. Do they even use the Bible at Duke now? Pretty sure that Furman discarded the idea that Scripture was any kind of authority several years back.
I suppose you hold to Graf-Welhaussen and the documentary source theory as opposed to God-breathed inspiration? Would like an answer to that one.
How about the crossing of the Red Sea? Is the Biblical account to be taken literally, or do we rationalize it away as a result of centuries of "oral tradition" gone awry?
A bit surprised that Southern would grant an M.Div. when 3/4 of the work was done elsewhere, particularly at Duke! Thought that the liberals were mostly gone.
Your degrees do not impress me. If you were to deal with the issues in a substantial way, that would be a little more impressive.