The reign of amillenial theology

[Charles Meadows]

RJ,

What? I am premil and fully believe that a soul goes to heaven immediately at death (since the cross, that is). Premil and "absent from the body, present with the Lord" are not in any way out of harmony!

I also believe this. But the great premill father Irenaeus rejected it! He felt that an intermediate state was necessary before heaven. His main reasons were:

1. The soul needed time to "prepare" to meet the perfect creator.

2. That Jesus Himself descended first to Hades.

Irenaeus' conception of a thousand year kingdom before the final judgment were conditioned by these two things as well as (probably) some dependence on 2 Baruch and other Jewsih works.

Thus my point!

To enlist the "early fathers" in blanket support of "premillenialism" is a little much. Yes they did (some of them) conceive of a millenium but not in they way we tend to see things eschatologically.

 

[rjprince]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
I don't deny that some were clearly chiliastic (Irenaeus, Papias)... Thus they really didn't seem to have their theology 100% together in all areas. In my mind, to enlist "the fathers" as all premill is a little presumptious. It really isn't that simple.

The fact that they did not have their theology developed, as you stated, is a clear acknowlegement that they were not full grown premils. Does any premil/disp theologian claim that their theology was as full developed or identical to premillennialism today?

To me, it sounds like you have conceded the ECFs give evidence of premil leanings that we have been arguing.

 

[Charles Meadows]

RJ,

To me, it sounds like you have conceded the ECFs give evidence of premil leanings that we have been arguing.

Yes I would concede that.

I do feel it's important that we know what they really said since alot of pastors are simply saying, "all the fathers were premill", suggesting that they believed the same things that modern day dispies do.

And I would say "premill leanings" is a fair way to state it.

 

[rjprince]

AND, here is why that is such a critical point: Some on this site have been contending that the idea of a literal theocratic kingdom is the essence of apostacy, since it has not been the historic position of the church for the past 1500 years.

A literal theocratic kingdom is also fully in line with conservative dispensationalism. IT WAS BY NO MEANS A DEVELOPED DISPENSATIONALISM!!! But the seeds were there.

The animosity against Jews after the first couple of centuries belies the fact that Jesus was a Jew, the Apostles were Jews, the Gospel (big G) first went out from Jerusalem, and that God will one day again restore national Israel to global prominence and dominion.

I do not expect you, or anyone else here to roll over and play dead on the CT VSS DISP issue, but it is nice to find a bit of rapprochement from time to time between Classic Ds and Classic Cs (Dispensationalists/Covenantalists) and not just moderate Ds and Cs.

The Fall 89 issue of Grace Theological Journal was devoted to a discussion of Understanding Dispensationalism by Vern Poythress (a CT) and responses and counter responses by Paul Karleen and Robert Saucy offered at that years meeting of the Dispensational Study Group. It is an excellent discussion that is much more current than a lot of the discussion I am seeing here. While I am no great friend of Progressive D, the articles are very informative and though provoking.

 

[Charles Meadows]

I have Poythress' book from that effort. It was very fair I thought.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Aaron, none of Scripture is allegory. None of it. There isn't a single instance in all the Scripture of allegory.

How are you defining allegory?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by rjprince:
Aaron,

Let me jump in. "Genre" - your use of the word is interesting. I would take it as an indication of amil leanings, or at least leanings toward amil methodology. Rev is not the only book that mentions a literal theocratic kingdom! It is all through the Bible, OT and New! Rev is the only one that gives the duration as 1,000 years. I suppose you would argue that the numbers 1260, 12,000, 7, 12, 24 are all symbolic as well? I mean, since they occur in a book "the main character of which is symbolism"?

What about the "white horse", "white hair", "white robes"? That all nothing but non-literal symbolism as well?

I think it's universally agreed that the Bible contains multiple genres of literature: Historical narrative, Didactic, Poetry, Prophetic, Apocalyptic, etc., and that each must be read and understood accordingly. Whoever came away from the Psalms thinking that God "literally" has wings and feathers, Ps. 91:4?

In the same way no one has come from Revelation thinking that Christ has a "literal" sword in His mouth, or that there were "literal" beasts making war with God's elect.

But, as my Composition professor said almost 20 years ago, "Even in poetry, sometimes a train is just a train." So even in Apocalyptic literature, there are elements that are not allegorical/metaphorical/symbolic—however you want to say it, but a great portion of them are.

Just as there are some elements that are clearly allegorical in the didactic portions (must we "literally" eat Christ's flesh and drink His blood?), but the majority are not.

So the question is, which view of Rev. 20 better fits what has been taught about the Kingdom of God elsewhere?

 

[Daniel David]

Allegory in its strictest sense is when one story exists only as a type or example.

Paul was speaking in symbolic terms in Galatians 4.

Matt, I have no desire to waste my time with liberals. Btw, your post offered no substance, just the same mindless diatribe as the other amills.

Aaron, the issue is an earthly kingdom. Even if the 1000 years are symbolic (a point which I do not concede), it would refer to an unspecified time in which Christ will reign upon the earth.

There comes a time when contention is just a mask for unbelief.

Chaz, you are so clueless about Ireneaus. I have one of his books. I will post the whole quote to educate you.

 

[rjprince]

Chas,

I do not have Poythress. Have read the reviews. From what I have read he did give a fair representation of D, unlike Gerstner. I do have GTJ, Fall 89 which gives Sandeen's and Saucy's reply to the book, the reponse of Poythress back to them, and the summaries of the discussion that followed.

I do not agree with all that Poythress says, but at least he is fair in his representation of D from all that I can tell from the responses, counter responses, and discussion. May check abebooks to see if I can get a copy reasonable.

 

[rjprince]

Originally posted by Aaron:
So the question is, which view of Rev. 20 better fits what has been taught about the Kingdom of God elsewhere?

WOW! I am so glad you asked this. The OT has many very specific promises regarding the Kingdom. Here are a few...

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 11:1 ¶¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’’S hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! 8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. 9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. 7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. 8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

Jer 23:Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. 19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Ezek 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. 25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

Ezek 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezek 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Ezek 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; 26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

ALL OF THESE WITHOUT EVEN GOING TO DANIEL, THE MINOR PROPHETS, OR THE PSALMS.

The Bible has much to say about a literal theocratic kingdom. The spiritual presence of a kingdom now in the “age of the Gentiles” does not negate the promises of both the Old and New Testaments of a literal kingdom for Israel.

Sometimes a train is a train is a train is a train. Sometimes a kingdom is a kingdom is a kingdom is a kingdom.

 

[Charles Meadows]

RJ,

I would definitely agree that Gerstner's reviews of dispensationalism were less than fair. They were, in my opinion, downright mean.

 

[Charles Meadows]

DD,

Chaz, you are so clueless about Ireneaus. I have one of his books. I will post the whole quote to educate you.

I have ALL of his writings and some commentaries as well.

Why don't you go get that "quote"? Then you can go back and read ALL of his "quotes" and see what he really said.

You cannot fool those of us who actually know this subject.

 

[rjprince]

Chas,

Thanks. Gerstner should have known better on some of the things he wrote. How can you spend as much time studying a topic as he claimed and then misrepresent it so badly. Mathison's writing seems to be of about the same caliber in my opinion. Poythress, on the other hand, is a scholar who has produced a scholarly work on D. Gerstner’s work on D was very out of character from what I understand, at least academically so.

Re the ECFs, I have both ante and post. Have read them some, but not extensively. For me, the bottom line is not what they said, but what does the Bible say. Their opinions are interesting and foundational at times, but they are not authoritative. Again, as noted, they were still working on Christology for a few centuries. No surprise that their writings on issues like eschatology were not very developed.

 

[Daniel David]

Chaz, please remember that ignorance is not a virtue.

The concept of an earthly kingdom that is ruled by the Messiah is all throughout the O.T. and the N.T.

Remember that text on the coming regeneration in Matthew? You know, the one that scared all the amills away.

Here is what Ireneaus had to say:

"The church, indeed, though desseminated throughout the world, even to the ends of the earth, received from the apostles and their disciples the faith in one God the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth and the seas and all things that are in them; and in the one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was enfleshed for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who through the prophets preached the ECONOMIES (dispensations - parenthesis mine), the coming, the birth from a Virgin, the passion, the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Son, Christ Jesus our Lord, and His coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to recapitulate all things (that is, restore what Adam lost through sin), and to raise up all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, Savior and King, according to the invisible Father's good please, Every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess Him, and that He would exercise just judgment toward all; and that, on the other hand, He would send into eternal fire the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became rebels, and the godless, wicked, lawless, and blasphemous people; but, on the other hand, by bestowing life on the righteous and holy and those who kept His commandments and who have persevered in His love - both those who did so from the beginning and those who did so after repentance - He would bestow on them as a grace the gift of incorruption and clothe them with everlasting glory...

- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10

We know from Book 5 that he was premillenial. What is so interesting is that he mentioned the Economies, or better, dispensations. Now, there might not have been 7. Personally, I only hold to a few, but they are clearly marked off in Scripture.

Again, there is a point where contention is a mask of unbelief.

So there you go amills, we can point to a dispensational premillenialist hundreds of years prior to your precious Augustine. Bwa ha ha ha ha ha.

 

[Grasshopper]

Good o'le St. Irenaeus.

But the age of 30 years is the first of a young man’s mind, and that it reaches even to the fortieth year, everyone will allow: but after the fortieth and fiftieth year, it begins to verge towards elder age: which our Lord was of when He taught,


For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: "Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works."(6) This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years;(7) and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year." (Against Heresies, 5:28:3)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen Brother Irenaeus.

Another 230 years and those 6,000 years =
6 days will end and so will this age.
I for one won't be holding my breath

I haven't had this much fun

since
Dominican Catalan predicted in 1399AD
that the world would end in 3936AD
(based on there being 2537 verse in the
Book of Psalms).

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Allegory in its strictest sense is when one story exists only as a type or example.

Paul was speaking in symbolic terms in Galatians 4.

First, allegory is symbol. Second, what you mean by allegory is not what anyone else means when they say allegory. An allegory is simply an extended metaphor. A metaphor is making a comparison between two unrelated things.

"That man is a horse!"

Christ used metaphor: "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

An allegory is an extended metaphor where there is a one-to-one correlation between the thing spoken of and the thing being compared. You assume that an allegory must be fictional, but Paul used the historical narrative of Ishmael and Isaac to compare earthly Jerusalem with the heavenly Jerusalem (the Church). He called it an allegory in the same sense the term is regularly used today. And rightly so, for he said in another place that the things that happened to Israel happened as examples for us (the Church).

Some allegory is fictional. Nathan utilized fiction as an allegory in his rebuke of David, and, of course some of Christ's parables were fictional; e.g., the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan.

So, to say that there is no allegory in the Bible is incorrect and cannot be a premise for the "literal" interpretation of Rev. 20. The same Christ used allegory when speaking through the Law and the Prophets, when speaking of the Gospel, and when speaking of things to come.

Aaron, the issue is an earthly kingdom. Even if the 1000 years are symbolic (a point which I do not concede), it would refer to an unspecified time in which Christ will reign upon the earth.

Christ is reigning on the earth, in the hearts of His people. Just as His birth heralded "peace on earth, good will to men," which is almost universally understood to mean peace between God and man, His "coming" Kingdom, which is here now, was "not of this earth," but in the hearts of men.

There comes a time when contention is just a mask for unbelief.

Do you believe Christ when He says His Kingdom is not of this earth?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by rjprince:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
So the question is, which view of Rev. 20 better fits what has been taught about the Kingdom of God elsewhere?

WOW! I am so glad you asked this. The OT has many very specific promises regarding the Kingdom. Here are a few...

Isa 2:2 -4

Isa 9:6 -7

Isa 11:1 -9

Isa 40:1 -5

Isa 52:7 -10

Isa 61:4 -9

Jer 23:5 -8

Jer 30:4 -11

Jer 33:14 -22

Ezek 34:23 -27

Ezek 36:23 -27

Ezek 37:24 -27

Ezek 39:25 -29

ALL OF THESE WITHOUT EVEN GOING TO DANIEL, THE MINOR PROPHETS, OR THE PSALMS.

The Bible has much to say about a literal theocratic kingdom. The spiritual presence of a kingdom now in the “age of the Gentiles” does not negate the promises of both the Old and New Testaments of a literal kingdom for Israel.

Sometimes a train is a train is a train is a train. Sometimes a kingdom is a kingdom is a kingdom is a kingdom. </font>[/QUOTE]That's the big misconception. Amillennialists don't say Christ's Kingdom didn't come. They affirm that it did come. In fact, I'm astounded that you don't see these things all fulfilled in the Gospel!

In Acts 15, Peter clearly says that the tabernacle of David has been rebuilt, setup and is drawing "the residue of men". It's happened.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I haven't had this much fun

since
Dominican Catalan predicted in 1399AD
that the world would end in 3936AD
(based on there being 2537 verse in the
Book of Psalms).

Just how old ARE you?

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Matt, I have no desire to waste my time with liberals. Btw, your post offered no substance, just the same mindless diatribe as the other amills.

Ah, the usual labelling and insults that are the resort of those who have no argument...

Yours in Christ

Matt