The reign of amillenial theology

[Ed Edwards]

Trailblazer: "So, here we have A NICE OREDERLY MANNER OF AMILLENNIALIST DOCTRINE;
1- Proclamation of the future coming by the prophets.
2- The birth of the Savior.
3- The crucifixion of Christ.
4- The resurrection of Christ.
5- The ascension into heaven.
6- The Second Coming of Christ to restore ALL THINGS to a state of cleanliness as was prior to the fall of Adam and Eve.
7- The resurrection of the WHOLE human race - the saved and the unsaved.
8- The unsaved go to eternal condemnation.
9- The saved go into heaven for eternity."


To bad that leaves out the world in which
we now live. To bad that leaves out the
time of the salvation of Billions of
persons - the Church age.
To bad that leaves out not only us
premills but all the a-mills as well.

-------------------------------------

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to

Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will

according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile

church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.

BTW, Ephesians 3:2 the word "administration"
in the NIV is rendered "dispensation"
in the KJV1769.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the

saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to go through the Tribulation period
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

[2]1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin[/2]

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:

This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

 

[trailblazer]

HE'S ALL YOUR'S CHARLES!

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Aaron, I will say this as nicely as possible. Your study and understanding of eschatology is very limited and undeveloped.

Enlighten me, O learned one. You first tried to discredit Amillennialism by stating, "None of Scripture is allegory. None of it. There isn't a single instance in all the Scripture of allegory."

Not only was this patently false, as I showed on a previous page, but you then employed a universal negative, which to have any merit demands the one who employs it have a perfect knowledge of the subject being argued.

Your imperfect knowledge of the Scripture being discovered in my very first post here, you then demonstrated your ignorance of the figures of speech by creating your own definition of the word "allegory."

Not content you also attempted to stack the cards in your favor by insisting that we all concede to a logical fallacy, "begging the question", a.k.a. circular reasoning, in which one uses the question being debated as a premise in his reasoning.

e.g.

Q: Is Rev. 20 figurative or literal? A: To accept it as true it must be literal.

Q: Is the Bible inspired of God?
A: Yes, because it says so in the Bible.

To construe Matt. 19:28 as supporting a Premillennial view one must approach it with certain Premillennial presuppositions. But when asked, you dodged the question.

So, the ball's in your court, O sage. Answer my earlier questions about Matt. 19:28.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by trailblazer:
HE'S ALL YOUR'S CHARLES!

I respectfully accept your concession.
All branches of a-mill theology are
dead ends producing no fruit.

 

[Watchman]

Originally posted by trailblazer:
HE'S ALL YOUR'S CHARLES!

Well, I am not the Charles that trailblazer meant, nor do I disagree with Brother Ed. I have long admired him for his defense of the truth on the matter of eschatology.
While not as learned as many of the brethren here, I have been in Christ for 33 years now and have certainly read and listened to others pertaining to this subject.
What I would like for us to consider is that there is going to be a period of great tribulation. Let us look at the words of the Lord Jesus Himself at the "Olivet Discourse."
"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Mt. 24:21-22)
Can it be said that anything like that has ever happened in the past? "There should no flesh be saved." What happened in 70 AD was tragic for the Jews in and around Jerusalem, but it cannot be said that all flesh, every human being, was in danger of extermination. Nor can that be said even of World War II. It can only be that this "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus is yet future. Also, how could it be speaking of the trials and troubles the Christian goes through in this life?
The Book of Revelation speaks of John witnessing judgements being poured out upon the earth, from heaven. We see this in trumpet judgements and bowl judgements that speaks of the wrath of God being poured out. Is it not reasonable to presume that the pouring out of God's wrath (in Revelation)is connected to to the Lord's "great tribulation" of Matthew 24?
So it is that the "great tribulation" is a time of God's wrath that will be poured out upon mankind, punishment so severe that, well, no flesh would survive if it were to continue longer than it will.
Look now at Mt 24:37:
"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be."
The flood was the wrath of God against man. But something had to be done first. Noah was a righteous man. The wrath of God never was and never will be, meant for the righteous. Nothing could happen until "...the day Noah entered the ark." (Mt. 24:38)
There was another incident years after that when God determined to destroy Sodom. But there was there, in Sodom, Lot. Again, this righteous man, and his family had to be, in this case, physically removed.
We now live in the Church age. It is said of us, those who trust in Christ: "we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Because of what the Lord Jesus did for us, we have peace with God: "No condemnation..." (Romans 8:1) How could it possibly be then that the Lord's Church, His very body, His bride will go through the horrors of the great tribulation that the Lord Himself spoke of?
No, again, before God's wrath is poured out during the "great tribulation" something must happen. His Church, His Body, those made righteous by His blood MUST be removed first. And in fact, I submit to you that He spoke of this in Mt. 24:40:
"Then two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
I humbly submit that the Church will, in fact MUST be removed from this planet before the wrath of God is poured out, as it will be during the tribulation.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Watchman -- Preach it!.]

In the 1918-1919 Pandemic of Flu over
50 million people died world-wide. The
first 24-weeks of the 1918 flu pandemic killed
more people than the first 24-years
of the AIDS epidemic.

 

[trailblazer]

Watchman,

I don’t mind searching for truth with those who hold opposing views in a civil and Christian manner, but it has been my experience on this board that, what starts out to be a reasonable debate on differing opinions, eventually degrades into name-calling. When positions are challenged and are unable to be defend it with scripture, denial and insults are resorted to.

It is becoming obvious also that the ones that are the most defensive and the most difficult to get to “rightly divide the word of truth” with are pastors. History shows us that it really isn’t any different today than it was then. Jesus showed the most contempt for the Jewish leaders of his time because they were the hardest to reach. They had their preconceived ideas about who the Messiah was to be and would not change their views when the Messiah spoke to them directly. Why? Pride! They had “status.” Admitting error meant that they would have to admit to the people that they had been in error and they sought the admiration of the people more than the truth about the real Messiah. And so it is today – not with all, certainly, but many.

Added to this, you have the modern-day moneychangers in the temple. Who are those that seek to profit off God’s Word? The booksellers like the Lindsay’s and the LaHayes, and the tv evangelists that have made millions and live in luxurious estates from the donations of the people, to name just two examples. Do you really ever expect someone like the LaHayes's to ever admit that they might be in error on even one point? I don’t think so! They’d loose money on their book sales. Why, there are even booksellers on this website that are attempting to expound another mid-trib view because he has books to sell and he adamantly defends that view. (He doesn’t sell the books here, but how to get to his books that expound his theory are subtly there. And when his position is challenged, he isn’t even remotely nice or civil about it and outright attacks viciously if he is disagreed with.

Now, obviously I disagree with your positions above and I will address them but I have no hopes that they will be taken seriously. I recently spoke to a previous, and very learned pastor about the “new” views about dispensationalism that I was hearing more often than I had ever heard in the past. It was getting very confusing and one church would not even allow us to be members until we had gone through classes on dispensationalism and agreed to that doctrine. We were not even allowed to say that we held a differing view if dispensationalism were being discussed within a group of people. Very disturbing it was. That was when I went to my previous pastor for help. He told me that “dispensationalism is but the tip of the iceberg and to simply plug in that one word on my computer and I would be amazed at what came up. I did and I am still amazed.

For now, I will simply end this reply with this; I honestly do not believe that “dispensationalism” has born “good fruit” for the body of Christ as a whole. It has caused great divisiveness, dissention and serious errors being taught from the pulpit, on tv and radio, and in books. Those who have held opposing view that were the major foundational teachings of the church for over 1,800 years are spit upon by those who follow the primary originator of these “new” teachings in these last days of which I firmly believe that the end is near and Christ really and truly is standing at the door.

You speak of a “great tribulation” but I would ask any Christian if they do not see that this “new” doctrine is not causing “great tribulation” within the church today?

 

[Charles Meadows]

Trailblazer,

Yep. I wouldn't doubt the sincerity of the premill dispies - nearly my whole church espouses this position. But people espouse this position because it is what they have been taught. When I was saved I adopted this position - but I found myself forced to abandon any sort of rapturist position pretty soon therafter. There is just NO support at all for a rapture!!

The millenial question is separate. I don't think we can deny that millenial thought has been prominent down through the ages, from the early church until now. While the scripture often speaks of a thousand year reign, it does so in general terms. Even Rev ch 20 doesn't give any PURPOSE for the millenium. What occurs in the millenium that does not occur in heaven afterwards? An honest and contextual reading of scripure can give only one cogent position - amillenial.

The problem with discussion is that many here will resort to name calling first, eschewing actual scholarly discussion of the issue.

Oh well...

 

[Ed Edwards]

Trailblazer: //He told me that “dispensationalism is but the tip
of the iceberg and to simply plug in that one word on my computer
and I would be amazed at what came up. I did and I am still amazed.//

I tryed this. I found three sites real quick that helped
me increase my faith in God and my belief in the dispensational
theory taught by The Bible, God's Holy Written Word.
Thank you brother Trailblazer for helping to enlighten me for God.

 

[Watchman]

Thank you Trailblazer. I prefer to speak in soft tones and that is the way you have responded. This is the way, I'm sure, that the Lord Jesus would have us speak.
I disagree with you, but you are my brother in Christ and I love you, as well as as all of those with a differing view.
If I error, I am erring because I take the Holy Bible too literally. You said:

You speak of a “great tribulation” but I would ask any Christian if they do not see that this “new” doctrine is not causing “great tribulation” within the church today?

I would certainly say that there is heated debate over the subject, but again, debate, no matter how heated, is not going to destroy all flesh.
I am pressed for time and would like to respond further, but I have no time now.

 

[trailblazer]

WATCHMAN,

I will need some time also. Around noon, Monday we recieved an emergency call that the pipes froze and broke at our camp in Maine. We use it for snowmobiling in the winter. It's a 5 hour drive so we had to rush up there immediately. Temps are below zero up here now. Ceilings were down in 3 rooms. Will be busy for a bit.

I only responded to your post because you did seem to present your views in a Christian manner and I do respect that. I had just about given up responding entirely on this website but will see how things go.

 

[Ed Edwards]

We will try to keep some of the eschatology
lines open until you can get things under
control. Needless to say, we have no envy
of your situation whatsoever but only
sympathy.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by trailblazer:
Correct about Iraneous, but Chiliasm was not what Dispensationalism is today!

I need to research it more, I think.

The complete breakdown of charts and stuff didn't really exist, but that isn't reason enough to believe that he wasn't pretrib/premill.

I don't agree with alot of classical dispy teaching, yet I am pretrib/premill, just like the apostle Paul.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Aaron:
1. Enlighten me, O learned one. You first tried to discredit Amillennialism by stating, "None of Scripture is allegory. None of it. There isn't a single instance in all the Scripture of allegory."

2. Not only was this patently false, as I showed on a previous page, but you then employed a universal negative, which to have any merit demands the one who employs it have a perfect knowledge of the subject being argued.

Your imperfect knowledge of the Scripture being discovered in my very first post here, you then demonstrated your ignorance of the figures of speech by creating your own definition of the word "allegory."

3. Not content you also attempted to stack the cards in your favor by insisting that we all concede to a logical fallacy, "begging the question", a.k.a. circular reasoning, in which one uses the question being debated as a premise in his reasoning.

e.g.

Q: Is Rev. 20 figurative or literal? A: To accept it as true it must be literal.

Q: Is the Bible inspired of God?
A: Yes, because it says so in the Bible.

4. To construe Matt. 19:28 as supporting a Premillennial view one must approach it with certain Premillennial presuppositions. But when asked, you dodged the question.

1. I am trying to. Unfortunately, you came in on the tail end of the discussion, when many of the issues were already addressed, and several amills tucked tail and ran home. You need to at least glance through the discussion. Btw, no one can refute my opening post. Go ahead, try it.

2. Are you saying you have never heard of someone refer to an event as allegorical, meaning that it was a made up story that wasn't to be taken literally? Liberals have used this for who knows how long.

Take Genesis 1, 2, or 3. When liberals say it is allegory, they are meaning that it is made up to communicate some mystical message.

3. There isn't a single reason within Revelation 20 to even think it might be anything but literal. It was the expectation of the O.T. and confirmed by Christ that he would reign upon the earth. No, it is the amills and their attempts at playing the part of the butcher to the Word of God who are clueless.

4. Again, there are no premillenial presumptions to this text. Read it out loud if you have to 10 times.

Now, when did the regeneration happen? If you say it is in heaven, then you have the disciples ruling a heavenly nation of Israel. Um, insanity might be an appropriate plea right about now. Snicker snicker.

Btw, you failed to deal with what I posted regarding Peter's view of Christ's words in Acts 3. Maybe he had premillenial presumptions as well, so we should just disregard him as well.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Are you saying you have never heard of someone refer to an event as allegorical, meaning that it was a made up story that wasn't to be taken literally?

I believe I gave some examples thereof earlier.

There isn't a single reason within Revelation 20 to even think it might be anything but literal.

Now that's the issue in question. Sure there is. To take it "literally", as you are using the word, contradicts what Christ and His Apostles taught about the Kingdom in other places.

Again, there are no premillenial presumptions to this text. Read it out loud if you have to 10 times.

Just answer my questions about it. I'll go slower if you need me to.

Now, when did the regeneration happen? If you say it is in heaven, then you have the disciples ruling a heavenly nation of Israel.

Are you or are you not regenerate? Are you or are you not raised with Christ? Did He or did He not sit you in the heavenlies with Him?

Btw, you failed to deal with what I posted regarding Peter's view of Christ's words in Acts 3. Maybe he had premillenial presumptions as well, so we should just disregard him as well.

We'll deal with Peter in time. I have posted questions you seem to be avoiding. Deal with those first.

 

[Daniel David]

For the sake of trying to "deal" with too much at one time. I will start another thread on a few of the issues. Feel free to do the same. Let's try to keep them on focus though.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Tomorrow night, I will make post on this.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[trailblazer]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I'm back.

Many premills saying amillennialism doctrine is a false doctrine and dangerous. Premills saying, amill deny future literal 1,000 years reign on earth after the second coming of Revelation chapter 20. Some premills saying, why not amills tear Revelation chapter 20 out of the Bible?

I never saying that premill is a false doctrine and cult. I know lot of Christians are premill. I was one of them before for a long time.

I want to emphasis or stress that millennium debate have do NOTHING with salvation.

I want to show you the list of the things from the Bible, premills and amills both believe:

1. Premill and Amill, both believe Christ died on the cross for our sins - Romans 5:8

2. Premill and Amill, both believe Christ paid all our sins through His blood by the cross- salvation -Heb. 10:10

3. Premill and Amill, both believe Christ rose from the death - Romans 10:9

4. Premill and Amill, both believe Christ is now sit on the right hand of God the Father in the heaven - Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3

5. Premill and Amill, both believe Christ will come again in the future - second coming - Rev. 22:20 - my favorite verse!! (***NOT all amillers are preterists. Please be careful for being accuse on amill that they are preterists, that is not always true)

6. Premill and Amill, both believe the Gospel is spread over the world to the Gentiles - present day after Pentacost Day - Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15; & Acts 1:8

7. Premill and Amill, both believe the apostasy is increasing worst daily throughout the Church history is continuing toward climax till second advent. - 2 Thess. 2:3

8. Premill and Amill, both believe Satan is alive, is very dangerous, seek to devour Christians - 1 Peter 5:8

9. Premill and Amill, both believe Satan was defeated by Calvary - Genesis 3:15

10. Premill and Amill, both believe Antichrist will be defeat and cast away into the lake of fire at the second advent - Rev. 19:20

11. Premill and Amill, both believe all Christians shall be caught up in the air - alive at the second advent - 1 Thess. 4:17

12. Premill and Amill, both believe all Christians shall be resurrection - physical and literal at the second advent - 1 Thess. 4:16

13. Premill and Amill, both believe ALL Christians will become into immortality- never die again forever and ever at the second advent - 1 Cor. 15:51-54

14. Premill and Amill, both believe ALL of us shall face the judgement seat of Christ - 2 Cor. 5:10

15. Premill and Amill, both believe we shall reign with Christ on earth at the second advent - physical and literal - Daniel 7:14, 18; & Rev. 1:6

16. Premill and Amill, both believe old earth will be burned away - Rev. 21:1

17. Premill and Amill, both believe we shall see a new earth - literal and physical - Rev. 21:1

18. Premill and Amill, both believe Satan shall be cast away into the lake of fire - literal

19. Premill and Amill, both believe there shall be NO MORE building of the temple on a new earth, because Christ IS the temple - Rev. 21:22

20. Premill and Amill, both believe there shall be NO unbeliever left remain on the new earth after the judgement day - Rev. 20:14-15

I am thinking of add things unto the list. I just given 20 things on the list so far, that both groups believe the same thing- are the fact.

To amills, if you know anything from the Bible, that both are agree, please add it unto the list, if you want to.

There are many areas that both premill and amill agree, what they believe according to the Bible saying so.

But, both having different intepreting the Bible.

I notice Premill is more narrow mind on Revelation chapter 20 only. Because of "a thousand years" saying so. Some premillers say to amill, 'Why not you tear Revelation chapter 20 out of the Bible?' That is a wrongly accuse on amill.

To premillers: You have to be realize that amillers intepreting Revelation chapter 20 differently as what you intepreting it. No amiller saying that an amiller deny Revelation chapter 20. All amillers agree and follow Revelation chapter 20 - 100%. I understand that all premillers often saying, "I awalways agree and follow Revelation chapter 20 -100%." I was in your same shoe before for a long time.

Whilst myself was a premill before. I know nothing what amil really believe. I learned amill doctrine only 4 years ago. I was misunderstand what many amillers really believe. I started to study amill doctrine 4 years ago. I finally got understand very clear what amill really believe.

Why? Because, I always open my mind and heart willing to listen to them, what they saying according to their intepreting the Bible. Not only listen their intepreting. Also, I am open my mind and heart to read and study the Bible very carefully. I agree and follow the Bible 100% from Genesis to Revelation.

I notice, some premillers accuse on amill, that they do not believe in creation of the earth - Genesis chapter one.

HUH????

Why do some premillers think of them? Tell me, how do you know and prove that amill does not believe in the creation?

I realize that not ALL premillers are dispenesationalist. But, I notice some of you as premillers saying that amill does teaching dispensationalism.

What?! Please tell me, why do you think amill teaches dispensationalism? Also, please prove us, how do you know that, amiull teaches dispensationalism?

Often I hear many premill teachers, pastors, and authors telling us, that premill doctrine is the earliest doctrine on the millennium in the Early Church history.

Really?

Often, I hear many premill teachers, pastors, and authors saying that, amillennialism was taught by St. Augustine. That's why Roman Catholic controls over Christians, by teaching on amillennialism for many centuries.

Is that true??

Partially correct.

Yes, St. Augustine taught on it, what he believed.

But, you didn't realize the term, 'amillennialism' was not named as postion of millennium among Early Church history include 2nd or 3rd Century?

'Amillennialism' was not being named for that term till early 20th Century. 'Amillennial' was named by Dutch statesman and theologian Abraham Kuype (1837-1920). Please see book- "A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger- pp. 31. Let you know, I just brought that book last May 2003. That book is my FIRST book ever to read on amillennial written by an amiller author. I do not have amill book till I brought it only 1 1/2 years ago! I do have LOT of premill books in my library. When I read that book, I learned lot from him. My highly recommend you to order it. You can order it by through http://www.armageddon.com

But, you DON'T have to order it. I urge you to read and study the Bible! 2 Timothy 2:15

The reason that many Christianas teaching on premill doctrine, because they emphasis Israel and Church are distinction.

Amill believes Israel is the Church, Church is Israel.

Often, premill keeping on accuse amill, called them, "Replacement Theology". That is a wrongly accuse. Premill misunderstands what amill really believe.

Hey, I COULD have to say that premill is partially of Repelacement Theology, if I want to. Because, premill teaches that God puts 'Israel' on the shelf for now, focus on the Gentiles Church till rapture comes then, God shall start to focus on Israel again during Tribulation perios, also during millennial kingdom.

Is 'millennial kingdom' for the Jews only??? Premill teaches Jews will reign and possess their own TINY nation "Israel" in the Middle East during millennial kingdom.

Is that what the Bible actually teaching?

The Bible teaches us, that BOTH Jews and Gentiles shall reign and possess WHOLE new earth forever and ever at the second coming - Daniel 7:18; & Galatians 3:29

See? So....Why do you think amill is a false doctrine? There is no reason why do premillers accuse at them that it is a flase doctrine. We all as amillers are eager, exciting looking forward for Jesus coming, also we shall reign with Christ on earth in physical and literal forever and ever.

Amen? AMEN!!

Later I will continue make more post on amill dcotrine this week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[trailblazer]

WATCHMAN

Have had a busy week cleaning up after serious water damage from freezing pipes but am finally able to rest a bit and get back to our topic of the “elect being “raptured out and does not go through the great tribulation.

Due to constraints, I do not have time to go over all aspects of your last post at once because you brought out quite a few characteristics of a complicated theory. Therefore, I thought I would take it in sections and look into it one feature at a time. Since you started with the position of “it being reasonable that Christians would not have to go through that great tribulation period, I looked into that characteristic first.

First, I’ll concede to you on this as it was just a take-off of the term “great tribulation” and you’re right, the controversy doesn’t destroy all flesh.

Now, to start of with, I must clarify my view of the word “rapture” itself, as I think that many non-dispensationalists are reluctant to use the word because it has become a “catchword” by dispensationalist to refer to a 1,000 earthly reign of Christ. Yet, the word itself is a legitimate word that does describe the elect being “caught up to meet the Lord in the air.” In that sense of the word being used we would not disagree. Our disagreement would be with it being prior to an earthly Kingdom of a 1,000-year period. So, if I use the word “rapture” I will be saying something different.

Now, you seem to be focusing on about 7 points as foundation for your position that the elect are raptured using Mt 24:21-22…

"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Point #1 – the “great tribulation” which you say the “elect” should not go through. Why?
Point #2/b] – Because verse 21 says is going to be of …..“such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time” and that;
Point #3 – …if not cut short "There should no flesh be saved" because of such “great tribulation.”
Point #4 - Your question about this was; “Can it be said that anything like that has ever happened in the past?” Because…..
Point #5 - “What happened in 70 AD was tragic for the Jews in and around Jerusalem, but it cannot be said that all flesh, every human being, was in danger of extermination. Nor can that be said even of World War II.
Point #6 – And because, as tragic as it was …”It can only be that this "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus is yet future.”
Point #7 - And then your question was; …”Also, how could it be speaking of the trials and troubles the Christian goes through in this life?”

First, I did a word study of “tribulation” and Robinson’s Word Pictures has this to say about the word;

Tribulation. … to press, to oppress, to squeeze

”

Next, in Strong’s Concordance I found 14 uses in the NKJV and at least one more in the RSV. Then, I compared the word “tribulation” within the 15 verses in scripture and in their context. I was then able to determine if there was a consistent thought that scripture was revealing as a valid guideline for me to form an opinion about. It turned out to be very interesting when the context, when speaking of the saved, all definitely appeared to be saying that “the elect” does go through the tribulation.

A helpful tidbit piece of information that my pastor told us to use in studying the Bible was that, in most all cases, when Christ was teaching the disciples directly he was also speaking to the church through all ages. In other words, apply it to myself for instruction in my personal life and what Jesus was revealing to the church of all time. Why? Because it was the gospel message that he told them to take to “all nations” – all nations means all people, everywhere at all times.

Mat 13:21 “But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the Word, he immediately stumbles.

Here, the “he” refers to the individual that falls away when tribulation arises on account of the Word.

THE OLIVET DISCOURSE
The disciples ask Jesus three questions; 1) When will the destruction of the temple will occur; 2) what the sign of his “Coming” would be; 3) and the sign of the end of the world. He ignores the “when” and elaborates on the rest of their concerns.

Mat 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. (RSV)”

It would be a sidetrack for me to elaborate on this right now. Suffice it to say that it is not a “good” thing that modern day Christians are not willing to suffer tribulation for the privilege of being a Christian – including the majority of pastors in the pulpit.

Mat 24:20 “But pray that your flight is not in the winter, nor on the Sabbath day;”

Now “who” is Jesus telling to “Pray” concerning the “great tribulation” of the next verse? Those who would be the first Christians but also for Christians that would be enduring the “Great Tribulation” at the end of the world.

“Your flight”….meaning ALL Christians flight – the Jews of 70 a.d. and any all Christians of all time. Because “we” are being told to “pray” we must be present for it. Jesus doesn’t listen to the prayers of unbelievers until it is a prayer of repentance so, therefore, he is telling “all Christians in all ages” to pray.

Mat 24:21 ² …for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.²

“For”….( i.e.) Because of this “great tribulation in the immediate futures (literally) and far future (metaphorically) pray that either one of those flights be not in winter or on the Sabbath is what the context of 20 & 21 is saying. (The remainder of the verses below supports this conclusion that Christians of all time suffer tribulation – even the “great tribulation.”

Mat 24:22 “And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.”

“no flesh would be saved”… No human being would experience salvation! The word “saved” can either be speaking of “saved from anything in general” or of “soul salvation.” Here, because the term “the elect’s sake” immediately follows the context, it can only mean mans “salvation” of the soul as only the “elect” are ever saved.

Mat 24:23 “Then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ! Or, There! Do not believe it.”

“Then”…We’re still on earth at this point because He warns us (i.e “to you”) of what we will see that will cause many Christians to doubt what they are seeing.

“Do not believe…” Again, it is Christians the he warns, so they are still on earth. But, don’t believe what? The false Christ! Non-Christians don’t believe in the Christ! He NEVER warns unbelievers of false Christ because they never believed in the real one to begin with! Therefore, the believers are on earth otherwise they would not need to be warned of false Christs.

(I have a VERY interesting opinion about this false Christ, but it is irrelevant for this.)

Mat 24:29 “And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”

Now, up to this point there has been no indication of a “rapture” and yet, Jesus says that what is coming “immediately after the tribulation” of what we can expect to see or endure will next, be “how” the end of the world will occur. Jesus told us that we were not to know “when” the end would occur, but he did provide abundant information of what the “days” or conditions of the times were so that we would recognize them.

The commentator, Matthew Henry has this to say about the word Immediately…. “…it is said to be immediately after the tribulation of those days; but as to that, (1.) It is usual in the prophetical style to speak of things great and certain as near and just at hand, only to express the greatness and certainty of them. …The tribulation of those days includes not only the destruction of Jerusalem, but all the other tribulations which the church must pass through; not only its share in the calamities of the nations, but the tribulations peculiar to itself; while the nations are torn with wars, and the church with schisms, delusions, and persecutions, we cannot say that the tribulation of those days is over; the whole state of the church on earth is militant, we must count upon that; but when the church's tribulation is over, her warfare accomplished, and what is behind of the sufferings of Christ filled up, then look for the end.”

Mat 24:30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

“And then the “sign” of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then ALL the tribes of the earth shall mourn…” Notice that there are “two” groups on earth comprising “all the tribes of the earth.” One group, the unsaved only get to “see” the “sign” of the Son of Man – and only in “the heavens”. Only they mourn at that sign. Why? They suddenly know their fate.

“…and they shall see the Son of Man coming in clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.” Now, notice the difference here. The “they” out of “all” the tribes of the earth “see” Son of Man coming. God has never revealed Himself in all His glory to the unsaved at anytime, to my knowledge. Also, what the elect “see” is different. We see him “in the clouds of the heavens with power and great glory!” We aren’t mourning at his coming – we are standing in awe of his magnificent power and glory!!

But, the main point is this – both the unbelievers and the believers that have gone through the great tribulation are both on earth together observing what is happening in the “heavens” yet seeing it through different eyes. Which group do you want to be in?

Mat 24:31 “And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Now that the Son of Man has revealed Himself to both the just and the unjust who are still on earth at this point, separation, judgment and gathering begins!

The gathering of “the elect” who see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heavens with power and great glory - out of “all the tribes of the earth”

Christ couldn’t be “gathering His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” if they were in heaven already gathered!

More importantly, this language is global, whereas the destruction of Jerusalem was local. Therefore, it CANNOT be only referring to that period of time and that particular area!

(TO BE CONTINUED ON NEXT PAGE)