The reign of amillenial theology

[trailblazer]

(a continuation of the above thought)

WATCHMAN---(Point #9) “No, again, before God's wrath is poured out during the "great tribulation" something must happen. His Church, His Body, those made righteous by His blood MUST be removed first. And in fact, I submit to you that He spoke of this in Mt. 24:40:

"Then two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

I love the examples of Noah and Lot, but especially of the parallel account of Luke 17 because Jesus is there indicating more clearly than anywhere else that the historical events of the past pictures of judgment, separation, punishment and “removal of the righteous” occurred on the same day because he says it three times for emphasis. Then he proceeds to give us pictures of the types of separation, as you say above, concerning those in the fields, as our examples that will occur when He appears in the clouds on the last day!

WATCHMAN---(Point #10) “I humbly submit that the Church will, in fact MUST be removed from this planet before the wrath of God is poured out, as it will be during the tribulation.”

I HUMBLY SUBMIT THAT YOU MUST RETHINK YOUR POSITION BECAUSE OUR GOING THROUGH THE TRIBULATION DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD’S WRATH HAS BEEN POURED OUT –YET!

(RESPONSE TO WATCHMAN’S LAST POST)

Now, this is the portion of your last post that I would like to address as this answers the other points in it also.

WATCHMAN---“The centerpiece, if I may call it that, of our disagreement, is just what is meant by "great tribulation."

I would like, once more, to look at the Savior's words in Mt. 24: 21-22:

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened."

The Lord did not say: "For then you will have tribulations."

I agree with this as I went into it in the previous post today. I also listed all of the uses of the word “tribulation” on my original lengthy response and showed where each use of that word indicated that it is the church that endures all of them. I also included the more serious use of the “Great Tribulation.”

WATCHMAN---No, it was, "For then there will be great tribulation..." Now, does that great tribulation concern believers (you would say the Church here) only? No, for, again the Lord says quite plainly: "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved;"

No flesh left at all. "...unless those days were shortened..." what days? The Church age? The first century? It must be a period where "...those days were shortened

I guess I just don’t get your confusion of the words “those days” because they obviously refer to “those days of the great tribulation.” It’s the period of time that God allots for it. In Noah’s time it was 120 years.

Now, what about the “Great Tribulation” in Revelations? You say the “believers” don’t go through the Great Tribulation in Revelations? Well, then you have to exclude these verses in Revelation then.

”Then [the souls of the martyrs that are under the altar] were each given “a white robe” and told to rest a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been .”(Rev. 6:11)

Now, I think even you would agree that only martyrs have the right to wear the “white robes” would you not? And would you also agree that this verse is saying that there will be more coming up until the full number of the “elect” is complete?

Next is Rev. 7:9-17 but only to the references of “the white robed saints.”

“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes,….Then one of the elders addressed me saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?”…And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God…”

Now, who has“clean white robes?” All those who came out of the “great tribulation.” But let’s go further and look at the last reference to those saints wearing white robes.

”Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done…Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.” (Rev 22:12-14)

In order to be entitled to wear those white robes, we must be prepared to go through any tribulation – whether that is Great or small. Gill has this to say about those who come out of the Great Tribulation. I can’t say it better than this.

“…and he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation: seeing this company designs all the elect of God, that ever were, are, or shall be in the world; "the great tribulation", out of which they came, is not to be restrained to any particular time of trouble, but includes all that has been, is, or shall be; as all the afflictions of the saints under the Old Testament; from righteous Abel to Zechariah; and all the troubles of the people of God in the times of the Maccabees, Heb 11:35; all the persecutions of the Christians by the Jews, at the first publication of the Gospel; and the persecutions under the Roman emperors, both Pagan and Arian; and the cruelties and barbarities of the Romish antichrist, during the whole time of the apostasy; and particularly the last struggle of the beast, which will be the hour of temptation, that will come upon all the world; and in general all the afflictions, reproaches, persecutions, and many tribulations of all the saints, and every member of Christ in this world, who in the new Jerusalem church state will be come out of them; which supposes them to have been in them, and yet were not overwhelmed by them, and lost in them; but, by divine support and assistance, waded through them, and were now quite clear of them, and never more to be annoyed with them; see Rev_21:4” (Gill)

But as far as “ not caring what anybody else, like Gill or M. Henry says or thinks, I think it is wise to take under serious consideration what the prevailing thought by the most well respected scholars was prior to the new thought that entered the end times church by John Nelson Darby. Why? - Because we are all disciples of someone. If the theory of dispensationalism is not God ordained, then it is “the Ten Commandments” of John Nelson Darby and he is your apostle, prophet and leader.

You say this as your conclusion; “I am a premill because it, scripturally, makes the most sense, the pieces fit.”[/quote]

But I say; Once again, we are not to “think first about what makes sense to us” in our faulty human minds and then go to scripture for verification of it. It is the first downfall of all faulty religions.

 

[trailblazer]

I believe that by using scripture, I was able to successfully address all of your main points by showing...

1) that the church does go through the Great Tribulation of Matt 24
2) that the "white robed saints" of Rev 7:14 can be no one else but those who came out of the "Great Tribulation."
3) that "the church cannot be shown to be raptured out" prior to the Great Tribulation based on Rev 7:14 alone if it is taken "literally."
4) that God's elect, even though they go through the Great Tribulation, do not suffer God's wrath, punishment or condemnation.

 

[Saint]

An interesting discussion indeed. Has anyone here read "Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology" by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Ph.D.? It is a very thorough examination of just what is being discussed in this thread.

 

[Watchman]

Origen:
http://www.ovrlnd.com/universalism/origen.html

Which says (in part)
"He denied the historicity of critical sections of Scripture; he taught the preexistence of the soul and universalism (the belief that all will eventually be saved) and denied that Jesus was raised from the dead in a physical body."

Your man amills!

 

[trailblazer]

WATCHMAN

I don't agree with one micro-fragment of what Origen believes! Therefore, I am not in any manner, shape or form a disciple of Origen - if he even believed what you say he does.

Now, back to Matt 24 & white robed saints of Revelations?

My beliefs are taken from scripture as I have shown above.

 

[trailblazer]

WATCHMAN,

Found something of interest for you on that website you posted.

 

[Dr. Bob]

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