The Remnant

[Baptizo]

I have been to many churches that have taught dispensational premillennialism so by default that is what I land on. I have become more open-minded to other views concerning the End Times. I will present two verses that I look at as a literal future plan for Israel as a nation and would invite anyone to tell me if they believe this has or has not been fulfilled.

Ezekiel 11:17 - Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Romans 11:26 - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[Dave G]

" Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." ( Romans 11:5 ).

 

[Baptizo]

" Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." ( Romans 11:5 ).

Could this be the present time during Paul's ministry and also continuing into the future?

Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel as a whole still hasn't accepted their Messiah and Gentiles are still getting saved.

 

[Judith]

I have been to many churches that have taught dispensational premillennialism so by default that is what I land on. I have become more open-minded to other views concerning the End Times. I will present two verses that I look at as a literal future plan for Israel as a nation and would invite anyone to tell me if they believe this has or has not been fulfilled.

Ezekiel 11:17 - Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Romans 11:26 - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 9:6-7
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

 

[Baptizo]

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

The understanding that I have been brought up with is that there is a distinction between physical Israel and spiritual Israel. Gentiles are grafted into spiritual Israel by faith. Physical Israel will remain hardened until the last Gentile is grafted in. The purpose of this is to make physical Israel jealous. Then when Christ returns, physical Israel will see Him, have faith and be converted which fulfills Romans 11:26.

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

 

[Van]

A reading of Galatians 3 gave me the idea that "all Israel" is being added to with every people God causes in our present day until the end of the age. Thus to say "all Israel" has already been established seem untenable.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have been to many churches that have taught dispensational premillennialism so by default that is what I land on. I have become more open-minded to other views concerning the End Times. I will present two verses that I look at as a literal future plan for Israel as a nation and would invite anyone to tell me if they believe this has or has not been fulfilled.

Ezekiel 11:17 - Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Romans 11:26 - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Seriously, why the focus on End Times… frankly, I view this as an obsessive/ compulsive disorder without any merit.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The understanding that I have been brought up with is that there is a distinction between physical Israel and spiritual Israel. Gentiles are grafted into spiritual Israel by faith. Physical Israel will remain hardened until the last Gentile is grafted in. The purpose of this is to make physical Israel jealous. Then when Christ returns, physical Israel will see Him, have faith and be converted which fulfills Romans 11:26.

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

I don’t understand the bit about making physical Israel jealous… please explain.

 

[Baptizo]

I don’t understand the bit about making physical Israel jealous… please explain.

Romans 11:11 - I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Here is how the AMP translation puts it…

Romans 11:11 - So I say, have they stumbled so as to fall [to spiritual ruin]? Certainly not! But by their transgression [their rejection of the Messiah] salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous [when they realize what they have forfeited].

 

[Baptizo]

Seriously, why the focus on End Times… frankly, I view this as an obsessive/ compulsive disorder without any merit.

I do agree that eschatology is something that should not be an area of major focus. I certainly don’t like listening to entire sermons on it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do agree that eschatology is something that should not be an area of major focus. I certainly don’t like listening to entire sermons on it.

I am a Pan Millennial, ie, it will all pan out in the end. I was a Roman Catholic for the first 35 years of my life and never heard a word about end times theology, it really a distraction to my walk with verging on Obsessive compulsive behavior. I want no part of this nonsence.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Romans 11:11 - I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Here is how the AMP translation puts it…

Romans 11:11 - So I say, have they stumbled so as to fall [to spiritual ruin]? Certainly not! But by their transgression [their rejection of the Messiah] salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous [when they realize what they have forfeited].

The Jews Ive known in my life (mostly in the USA) really don’t care about religion of any kind & are designedly secular. What they want of Christians mostly is to be left alone… and most in this country aren’t even Zionists. Regarding being jealous, I don’t see that either…rather they are grateful for being in this country and be a part of the educational system, the freedoms the USA provides, the freedom of religion laws derived from the constitution etc.

 

[Baptizo]

it will all pan out in the end

The Left Behind movies pretty much convinced me how it will all pan out in the end.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Left Behind movies pretty much convinced me how it will all pan out in the end.

Having never watched any, then wouldn’t know… or care. I have a brother who prepared for Y2K spending thousands and lost his shirt but not his life. I believe that taught him something.

 

[tyndale1946]

" Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." ( Romans 11:5 ).

Here's your future remnant... Brother Glen

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

[kyredneck]

Regarding being jealous, I don’t see that either…

Already occurred/fulfilled:

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you. Ro 10

44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed. Acts 13

When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ? For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27:17,18

....and there's many other examples. Jealousy exhibited from the firstborn to the younger is a recurring fundamental theme in the scriptures foretelling/portraying the enmity between the Jews and Christ and His infant church.

Cain/Abel
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And Jehovah said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4
(see Pink on Cain & Abel)

Ishmael/Isaac
8 And the child grew, and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned.
9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne unto Abraham, mocking. Gen 21
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Gal 4

Essau/Jacob
41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him. And Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand. Then will I slay my brother Jacob. Gen 27

Saul the first king/David the second king
7 And the women sang one to another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, And David his ten thousands.
8 And Saul was very wroth, and this saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?
9 And Saul eyed David from that day and forward. 1 Sam 18

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Already occurred/fulfilled:

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you. Ro 10

44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed. Acts 13

When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ? For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27:17,18

....and there's many other examples. Jealousy exhibited from the firstborn to the younger is a recurring fundamental theme in the scriptures foretelling/portraying the enmity between the Jews and Christ and His infant church.

Cain/Abel
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And Jehovah said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4
(see Pink on Cain & Abel)

Ishmael/Isaac
8 And the child grew, and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned.
9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne unto Abraham, mocking. Gen 21
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Gal 4

Essau/Jacob
41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him. And Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand. Then will I slay my brother Jacob. Gen 27

Saul the first king/David the second king
7 And the women sang one to another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, And David his ten thousands.
8 And Saul was very wroth, and this saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?
9 And Saul eyed David from that day and forward. 1 Sam 18

I’m talkin about modern day secular Jews here not the Pharisees of the past. I’ve been to their tables, their temples, their companies, worked for them in the NYC Metro area… believe me, we are the Goyem not the Chosen Race in their eyes. And yea, you anger them with your Christ so they will indeed rebel. I don’t tell you how they rebel… but you can guess

 

[Baptizo]

Having never watched any, then wouldn’t know… or care.

I wouldn’t even watch it for the heck of it. It’s a poorly made film.

 

[Baptizo]

Already occurred/fulfilled

How do you square that with…

Zechariah 14:2 - For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

[tyndale1946]

How do you square that with…

Zechariah 14:2 - For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Josephus!... The Wars Of The Jews... Brother Glen